*Potential* alternator / belt / crank pulley / battery terminal issues (dead batt)

[Havard]

Hi Havard,

 

The amended thread title was done by a moderator. I had changed the title to simple "." as my original diagnosis following this mornings tests was potentially inaccurate. I did want to put up a full post but generally I wait for my lunch hour before I access forums as its frowned upon to do during work time. To clarify, the title suggesting I was witholding information was not a title I put on, it was done by what I can only assume was a moderator (I can only assume as I dont think non mods can edit titles).

 

I can totally see why this amended title received the responses that followed. From the comments it seems there was a spate of bad threads recently and mine probably got tied in with those despite my intention of editing it so that the mis-diagnosis (potentially) was not displaying still. I had changed the posts and the reason of "fixed" that I entered was (in retrospect) misleading as the problem isnt fixed its just that I dont think its 100% the alternator yet. I have no hard feelings over this as I view it as a misunderstanding.

 

As mentioned however I will be posting my findings once I get to the bottom of it. Ill be under the bonnet as soon as I get home with a torch (and a jacket this time!) to try and see whats going on.

 

Battery terminals will be cleaned up and I will grab some tipex on the way home and get the tipex test done.

 

Reading up on this I need to put load on - so locking wheels and flicking heaters on etc should do that (provided it starts). Ill stick it in park and rev it up to around 1600 so it doesnt die and the batter does charge for a good 5 minutes or so then check where the tipex line is. If this has moved then its crank pulley and / or belt. If not, then ill move onto the alternator.

 

- Chris, regarding the power steering I only ever notice something 'strange' when I have full lock on the power steering it makes a slight whirring sound, its hard to explain but it is similar to the sound of escaping gas from a coke bottle, but continually.. if that makes sense.

 

I appreciate the feedback and advice =)

 

Lol. Thanks for the explanation.

 

Dangerous things forums when the information is displayed as I read it this morning. Looked like you had got your knickers in a twist and the took the text away. When I read the post saying "fixed" that added more fuel to the fire..!!

 

Apologies for my ranting as it now seems like we were a little rash with the torches and pitch forks.

 

H.

[JS2004]

No harm done - its rectified now and as a result a new part (crank pulley) is in my scopes to be tested.

 

Your 100% right though and I can see exactly how it looked due to the modified title - that definately did not help matters, but with it being a forum and just 'text' its so easy to take things out of context (adding in that its a Monday morning too!).

 

Anyways hopefully my intentions and reasons for modification are now clear - and fingers crossed I can get it fixed without dipping into the xmas present saving pot too much.

Edited October 18, 2012 by JS2004
Typos (see edit history)

[Chris Wilson]

- Chris, regarding the power steering I only ever notice something 'strange' when I have full lock on the power steering it makes a slight whirring sound, its hard to explain but it is similar to the sound of escaping gas from a coke bottle, but continually.. if that makes sense.

 

I appreciate the feedback and advice =)

 

That's normal. Bad practice to "make it make that noise". It's the pressure relief valve in the pump opening as the line pressure to the rack has gone sky high as it's being held against the lock stops. If there's a wekness in the high pressure hose or rack seals doing that will find it. Always try and keep it OFF the lock stops, on any car. Bit like putting a manual in a forward gear before selecting reverse to stop the layshaft, so it doesn't "crunch" into reverse.

[JS2004]

Cheers Chris, I was not aware of that but I am now so wont do that any more

 

Normally I dont use full lock, its only when I have to get out of a tight parking spot. The drivers where I live are quite fond of literally sitting on the bumper (admittedly parking is difficult due to lack of space) so on occasions I end up spending 5 minutes edging back and forth to get out of the spot (Austin Powers style!)

[JS2004]

Turns out I was doing the Tipex test completely wrong!

 

http://www.jack-frost.co.uk/toyota_supra_crank_pulley.html

 

This website has pictures that clarify what it is you need to test.. which I need to do later on. I was stupidly trying to put the tipex l;ine on the belt and obviously that doesnt work.

 

So further testing to commence. Voltage still drops below 12.5v whenever the engine is

 

Corrosion of the battery terminal is not the problem as I have now cleaned this thoroughly and ensured good connection. Nod differences between bare wire and the battery any more so it has sorted some slight resistance out - however its still dropping below 12.5v when idle (with nothing else at all on.. boo).

 

Could have been happening for a long while, I guess driving with lights and heating on has simply made the problem surface now.

Edited October 18, 2012 by JS2004
Typo (see edit history)

[JS2004]

Righto, narrowed it down.

 

Crank Pulley is fine - tipex test and running it for various lengths of time results in the line staying solid and not moving.

The belt itself doesnt appear to be slipping - there is some wear and tear visible so this is going to be replaced anyways to rule that out completely.

Battery terminals are fine now. There was some corrosion and some resistance but I have cleaned that up and its now showing no resistance.

 

Conclusion is that its definitely the alternator based on my testing.

 

Under 1500 RPM the voltage is dropping steadily on the multimeter. Above 1500 it remains above 12.5v and does go up as RPM increases. So the alternator is working, its just not working properly.

 

Visual check of the alternator it doesnt look like anything is wrong - the wires and cables etc are all in place and nothing appears to be broken. Im guessing its the internal parts which are worn or tired.

 

My options are:

1) buy a 2nd hand alternator (cheapest option)

2) refurbish existing alternator (most complicated option)

3) buy a new alternator (most expensive option)

 

 

I refurbished my starter motor a year ago using a guide off of here. I have looked for a refurb guide for the alternator on here but have not found one yet. Ill go and check the other forums and www to see if any guides exist. If they dont I will abandon idea number 2 unless I can find a local electrical company who can do it (which I cannot find yet)

 

I will give mr T a call also and find out the prices for a new one tomorrow if possible.

 

If theyre really silly money then I may have to pick up a 2nd hand one from the forum and hope it lasts a fair while and is not on its way out. I know 2nd hand parts are always a big gamble but it may be my only option in the short term!

 

So there we have it.. fubared alternator.

 

*If anyone has a guide or knows of one for refurbing the alternator I would appreciate a link.

[scott87]

Righto, narrowed it down.

 

Crank Pulley is fine - tipex test and running it for various lengths of time results in the line staying solid and not moving.

The belt itself doesnt appear to be slipping - there is some wear and tear visible so this is going to be replaced anyways to rule that out completely.

Battery terminals are fine now. There was some corrosion and some resistance but I have cleaned that up and its now showing no resistance.

 

Conclusion is that its definitely the alternator based on my testing.

 

Under 1500 RPM the voltage is dropping steadily on the multimeter. Above 1500 it remains above 12.5v and does go up as RPM increases. So the alternator is working, its just not working properly.

 

Visual check of the alternator it doesnt look like anything is wrong - the wires and cables etc are all in place and nothing appears to be broken. Im guessing its the internal parts which are worn or tired.

 

My options are:

1) buy a 2nd hand alternator (cheapest option)

2) refurbish existing alternator (most complicated option)

3) buy a new alternator (most expensive option)

 

 

I refurbished my starter motor a year ago using a guide off of here. I have looked for a refurb guide for the alternator on here but have not found one yet. Ill go and check the other forums and www to see if any guides exist. If they dont I will abandon idea number 2 unless I can find a local electrical company who can do it (which I cannot find yet)

 

I will give mr T a call also and find out the prices for a new one tomorrow if possible.

 

If theyre really silly money then I may have to pick up a 2nd hand one from the forum and hope it lasts a fair while and is not on its way out. I know 2nd hand parts are always a big gamble but it may be my only option in the short term!

 

So there we have it.. fubared alternator.

 

*If anyone has a guide or knows of one for refurbing the alternator I would appreciate a link.

 

Buy a second hand one for say £40-£60 and swap the working parts from one to the broken parts on your current one....That way you know yours was working apart from the failed component that you will have replaced?

[Chris Wilson]

Why not just take it to an auto electricians and get them to test the alternator under a proper load? It may have worn brushes, but in 95% of cases the slip rings will be worn out, too, and they are not listed separately by Toyota. If you plan on keeping the car for a longish time I'd buy a new one, most used ones will be in the twilight of their lives. If you want me to just put new brushes in yours and check the regulator and rectifier assemblies properly, I can do this.

[JS2004]

Thanks for the ideas guys.

 

I was trying to remove it over the weekend but I think that I was doing something wrong. I cant seem to get the belt loose.

 

Is it just one bolt over the top of the alternator holding it in place - or would I ideally need to jack it up and go from underneath?

 

I spoke to Mr T - a new one is currently out of the question at £250 excluding VAT. Ive recently bought a house and doing that up is putting a lot of strain on my finances.

 

Im planning on having another go at getting the belt loose and alternator out this Friday. If I am able to remove the alternator I can look at weight / shipping prices to get it to you Chris. Out of interest how much would you typically charge to replace the brushes and check the slip rings?

 

I have a backup plan to take it to a garage to remove the alternator but thats even more cost - if I can get it removed myself I would prefer to do that (It is also more convenient as I can just leave the car at home).

 

I did consider a 2nd hand alternator but its another gamble. I bought a 2nd hand shock absorber previously which developed a leak after 2 weeks. So for this id prefer the refurbishment over a 2nd hand unit.

[JS2004]

Update - Alternator was sent off to Chris for a refurb. He advised it was in a bad way and it looked like there was oil within it.

 

The innards have been replaced with good used parts and cleaned out thoroughly - A lot cheaper than getting a new OEM one from Toyota. It should be back with me on Friday along with a new belt so I should be up and running again.

 

I will have to have a hunt around to see if I can locate where this oil is coming from though - I have not noticed any significant changes in the oil levels though.

 

So all in all - alternator had bit the bullet and thats now sorted out.

 

Big thanks to Chris for helping with the refurb

[Chris Wilson]

On its way back to you with a new auxiliary belt. Thanks!

[Digsy]

I will have to have a hunt around to see if I can locate where this oil is coming from though - I have not noticed any significant changes in the oil levels though.

 

This is an NA, right? You will probably find the leak is coming from the drive to the distributor, which is right above the alternator.

[JS2004]

Correct - it is an N/A. I have not noticed a leak or seen a drop in levels however I will be having a look for this. Tomorrow I will be at the garage and ill have a good nosey around to see if I can spot any.

 

Chris said it could have been from a previous oil leak - so fingers crossed it was and thats now fixed.

 

Im also going to check the rubber hose that fits to the water pump valve as Chris said this may be perished and its a simple replacement with a similar sized push fit piece of hose - it will stop water from going into the alternator if theres a problem with that valve so if anyone else is sorting their alternator out its probably smart to check this too. He said its a valve behind the pulley, underneath.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Changing the belt whilst I am at it too

[Chris Wilson]

The O ring that leaks on the N/A disy is on the body where it "plugs in" to the head. If you CAREFULLY scribe a fine line on the disy and the head so you can put it back in the same rotational spot as it's removed from you will see the O ring in a groove on the disy body. I keep replacements in stock and can fire one off in an envelope, it's an easy fix. Digsy is spot on, this is a common source of oil leaks on the 2-JZGE engines, and it can contaminate the alternator area.

 

If you want to track your alternator go to http://www.dpd.co.uk/tracking/index.jsp and use parcel number :

 

72J 1550 2187 1556 72J

[JS2004]

Cheers for the info guys. I was there on Saturday to check the water pipe and look for leaks. I could not spot anything except for a small bit of oil around one of the bolts holding a flange onto the main part of the engine (block?) There was nothing underneath the car either and it has been sat there for near enough 2 weeks now.

 

Once it is up and running properly again ill have a good look around - however that doesnt appear to be any time soon.

 

After speaking to the garage today, the refurbished alternator and new belt have been installed however for some reason it only seems to be providing 6v to the battery and 6v from the alternator. Im not sure what could be causing this.

 

The garage is also reporting that it runs almost as if it is misfiring. I thought this could be to do with the battery being disconnected for 2 weeks and that running it a bit would sort it, but if the voltage from the alternator is 6v I dont think I would get very far before it died on me.

 

So potentially back to the drawing board again to try and identify what is going on

[Chris Wilson]

I replied to your e-mail :

 

Sounds like something is loading the alternator up very badly indeed,

maybe a faulty battery or faulty wiring / earths? I had it on a test

rig at my pal's place and it gave full amps out at 13.8 volts, so

rectifier and regulator were AOK. I would check the battery, loading

it down to 6 volts will NOT do the alternator any good, this is what

may have killed it originally.

[JS2004]

Cheers Chris, I appreciate it.

 

Taking your recommendations on board when I visit the garage tonight. Hopefully they have a known good battery laying around that they could check against.

 

If that doesnt work then ill try to get the wiring looked at. Fingers crossed!

 

Ill gather as much extra info as possible tonight too.

[Chris Wilson]

Just get them to do the Tipex test on the crank damper. If it's goosed, and the outer ribbed auxillary belt drive ring is slipping, it will give a low output from the alternator and never charge the battery up properly. I had this with a forum member's car I diagnosed by telephone, after he'd spent a lot of time chasing electrical issues. I am 100% confident the alternator was working correctly when shipped, so I feel there's another issue.