ALG JOT Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm287/akcustomz89/595C060A-680B-415A-A42C-E953F3DD588F-558-000000CC4A64A2FB.mp4 This is what my engine sounds like when trying to start with fuel on. If i pull the fuse and run it without fuel it turns over well with no stops. I have fuel as i flooded the plugs and dried them out. I have spark as previous thread. My timing is spot on as i have triple checked it even looking and the marking on the crankshaft gear. Im scratching my head can't think at all whats wrong. I have even checked the resistance in every vital sensor and all is within spec. Help please before i crack! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hartmann Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 sounds more like the timing is 180 degrees off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjy Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Assuming you've not tried easy start, just to make sure it's firing properly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALG JOT Posted October 7, 2012 Author Share Posted October 7, 2012 sounds more like the timing is 180 degrees off So if i leave the camshafts where they are and turn the crankshaft a full 360 would that be right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjy Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Was this running previously or just been built?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALG JOT Posted October 7, 2012 Author Share Posted October 7, 2012 its got my original head which was checked and refitted onto a working shortblock. Im giving up again today i have tried everything i can think of! Any chance someone local that can give a hand? I will pay for your time of course and supply tea lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straightsix Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Was the crank at TDC when you put the belt on? Take out No. 1 plug and get a long thin bar or a piece of dowel, turn the engine using the crank pulley - the stick should show the piston rise up. When it's as high as it goes, it's at TDC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALG JOT Posted October 7, 2012 Author Share Posted October 7, 2012 Was the crank at TDC when you put the belt on? Take out No. 1 plug and get a long thin bar or a piece of dowel, turn the engine using the crank pulley - the stick should show the piston rise up. When it's as high as it goes, it's at TDC Yup when i bolted the head on, piston one and six were up top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALG JOT Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 Anyone else? Can a faulty fuel damper prevent a car from starting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedrosixfour Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) Yup when i bolted the head on, piston one and six were up top. Just because the piston #1 was at the top doesn't mean it was on the correct stroke to be deemed @ TDC and ready to fire. It could've been at the end of the exhaust stroke rather than the end of the compression stroke. Edited October 8, 2012 by pedrosixfour (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALG JOT Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 Just because the piston #1 was at the top doesn't mean it was on the correct stroke to be deemed @ TDC and ready to fire. It could've been at the end of the exhaust stroke rather than the end of the compression stroke. So how would you suggest fixing this problem? Surely turning the crankshaft 360 degrees again while keep the cams lined up(cambelt removed) would still be just the same position as before right? Or am i being dopey as usual and missing something obvious? haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedrosixfour Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) So how would you suggest fixing this problem? Surely turning the crankshaft 360 degrees again while keep the cams lined up(cambelt removed) would still be just the same position as before right? Or am i being dopey as usual and missing something obvious? haha Cams rotate at half the speed of the crank mate so a full turn of the crank, seperate to the cams, would certainly have an effect (good or bad is not yet established) on the timing/firing sequence. If all the timing marks (cams & crank) line up and IF the engine has a totally stock valvetrain then a full turn of the crank may be a possible answer. I DO NOT ACCEPT ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR SUBSEQUENT ISSUES RESULTING FROM THIS ADVICE!! Seriously. Edited October 8, 2012 by pedrosixfour (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dnk Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) Surely you set no 1 at TDC compression on the block, set the cams in the head, chuck the belt on lining up the timing marks and hey presto Edited October 8, 2012 by Dnk (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALG JOT Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 Cams rotate at half the speed of the crank mate so a full turn of the crank, seperate to the cams, would certainly have an effect (good or bad is not yet established) on the timing/firing sequence. If all the timing marks (cams & crank) line up and IF the engine has a totally stock valvetrain then a full turn of the crank may be a possible answer. I DO NOT ACCEPT ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR SUBSEQUENT ISSUES RESULTING FROM THIS ADVICE!! Seriously. Yes so surely then the crank would be in exactly the same place as it was when the belt was still attached because of the 360degree rotation? The crank only needs to turn 180degrees for the cams to rotate once correct? I hope this is making sense or am i sounding thick again? haha Surely you set no 1 at TDC compression on the block, set the cams in the head, chuck the belt on lining up the timing marks and hey presto This is exactly what i have done. And im pretty sure TDC 'compression' is just the same as 'exhaust' the block knows no difference it only knows up and down right? lol I have taken the cambelt covers on and off now a number of times to check and double check my markings line up. I have even used the long stick down cylinder 1 technique to see if maybe the oil pump gear was off alignment but it was fine. I am just after coming back in from so more poking around on it and found wire missing from the fuel filter. I remember taken it off but cant find it now. Would that really cause any issue though? I am also thinking about the fuel damper bypass mod as its on the list to do anyway and may have been one of the causes to lean out? Another thing i forgot to mention is the car is running a hks fcon pro. Could the time its been disconnected cause any issues with the map etc? I doubt it but worth putting out there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALG JOT Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 Thank you all by the way for trying to help its always good to get another opinion from people in the know other than nosey neighbors and smart arse kids hahaha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedrosixfour Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Yes so surely then the crank would be in exactly the same place as it was when the belt was still attached because of the 360degree rotation? The crank only needs to turn 180degrees for the cams to rotate once correct? I hope this is making sense or am i sounding thick again? haha No mate, the crank would need to rotate twice in order for the camshafts to do one complete rotation. Thats why, as far as I can make out, if crank is not on the right stroke in relation to the the fueling and firing it's possible the injectors and spark plugs are firing at the end of the exhaust cycle rather than the compression cycle. The main problem with listening to me is that I am unfamiliar with the sensors and signals that control the injectors and plugs. So the scenario I am describing may not even exist, its possible the spark plug in each cylinder fires once for every rotation of the crankshaft due to the possible position of the relevent sensor and that would not be an issue. But I can't see how the injectors would be allowed to fire anywhere else other than at the end of the compression stroke, ie once per cylinder for every TWO rotations of the crankshaft, if thats the case then I think my theory is still sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALG JOT Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 No mate, the crank would need to rotate twice in order for the camshafts to do one complete rotation. Thats why, as far as I can make out, if crank is not on the right stroke in relation to the the fueling and firing it's possible the injectors and spark plugs are firing at the end of the exhaust cycle rather than the compression cycle. The main problem with listening to me is that I am unfamiliar with the sensors and signals that control the injectors and plugs. So the scenario I am describing may not even exist, its possible the spark plug in each cylinder fires once for every rotation of the crankshaft due to the possible position of the relevent sensor and that would not be an issue. But I can't see how the injectors would be allowed to fire anywhere else other than at the end of the compression stroke, ie once per cylinder for every TWO rotations of the crankshaft, if thats the case then I think my theory is still sound. Ahhhhh yes its all coming back to me now all them years ago of learning it! hahahaha! Ok so i will try this tomorrow and see how it goes. Unless so wants to have a word? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjy Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) If cylinder 1 is at TDC, it's at TDC. The crank turns 360 degrees to 1 revolution. The cams turn at half crankshaft rotation, so the cams can be 180 degrees out. The crank sensor doesn't give a shit if it's on compression or exhaust, that's the job of the cam sensor. If it's 180 out, the marks on the cam pulleys won't line up. Also, the cam lobes should be both pointing up on cylinder 1, (as you look at the engine, the left cam/exhaust cam should be at 10 or 11 o'clock position, and the right cam/inlet cam should be at 1 or 2 o'clock). No possibility you've got the cams or pulleys mixed up? EDIT: 4 stroke cycle takes 2 revolutions to complete. Induction, compression, power and exhaust. Stroke 1 TDC > BDC - Induction. Stroke 2 BDC > TDC - Compression. Stroke 3 TDC > BDC - Power. Stroke 4 BDC > TDC - Exhaust. In that time, the crank will have done 2 full revolutions, and the cams will have done one full revolution, thus, the engine back to TDC. Edited October 9, 2012 by Benjy (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wile e coyote Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Crank position sensor ? Do you have good compression ? Just my 10 pence worth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 The cam timing is out. If you are lucky you haven't (YET....) damaged the bores and piston rings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALG JOT Posted October 9, 2012 Author Share Posted October 9, 2012 As i said many times already the timing is spot on all markings were perfect compression was good. And now its running!!! turned out the crank sensor wheel that sits behind the bottom pulley was different to my old engine. Swapped them round and it fired right up. That would be why i was getting spark and fuel but just not at the right times haha. Didn't let it run for long as it was getting late and was a bit rough so will continue tomorrow on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 The star wheel is well known for coming away from its peenings and can rotate relative to the crank itself, throwing the ignition and injection timing out. The part itself has not changed throughout the model's build period though. Glad it's now sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedrosixfour Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Nice one! I think I'll slowly step away from the thread now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALG JOT Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 Nice one! I think I'll slowly step away from the thread now. Hahaha no worries thanks for all the help though mate always nice when you can get others thoughts on the cause than beating yourself up trying to think too much into it yourself. One thing i would like to ask everyone else thathelped though(ones with a working supra lol) any chance someone can show mepics of where all the grounds should be bolted to? The main ones i want to know are under the inlet manifold. I know there should be one off the firewall to the rear engine hook. One off the fuel filter to gearbox and then the rest under the inlet but where exactly? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedrosixfour Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 This link might be of use, I didn't actually open the files it contains to confirm, but if Nic supplied it then it's a good bet. http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?269509-Grounding-points-for-a-TT-engine And thats it!! Thats all I'm saying! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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