Ian C Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 We've had this discussion a few times, and one important thing when you're discussing what temps you see is to state where you're measuring it. There hasn't been a "perfect" spot worked out, but the two main areas people go for are at the sump and at the filter. Mine personally is at the filter, I figured that this is just prior to the exchange cooler and therefore it'll be pretty much at its hottest. As for the bottom of the sump I can't help but think that'll be the coolest spot, as it's where the oil is stored after cooling. For info, at the filter, I see 90 to just under 100deg on normal driving, it'll creep into the 105's with a faster run. Repeated (about 10 with a quick turnaround at each end) 3rd gear rollons from 900rpm to the rev limit on a warm runway saw it get to 125, at which point I let it cool down before continuing. I don't run an aftermarket cooler as I rarely cane it like that. It's pushing about 550bhp for what that's worth. Someone (I think Digsy) told me that 125 was alright for my oil (Silkolene 10w50 I think), 135 is where you should avoid, but I like my margins of safety I figured if it's 125 at the filter it's probably hotter than that in the block/head. -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 What Water Temps should I see on a track with lots of low gear work at slow track speeds. I have my defi alarm set at 100 degress , she sounded once or twice but cooled down within a few seconds after I drove on Is 100 degress a good point to set the Alarm for water temp? the sensor is located in Whifbitz supplied Greddy Polished Allloy top rad hose The top rad hose is the water outlet from the engine, so it's the hottest point, so it is the best place for the sensor 100degC might be a bit low though, the system is pressurised because that raises the boiling point beyond 100degC. Best to ask someone who abuses their car on the track what the water temps datalog at, that'll tell you a safe working maximum. Set your alarm a couple of degrees above that. Paul Whiffin, Chris Wilson et al might be able to provide a good number. I have a 19 row Diftworks Oil cooler (MPH Performance oil cooler) installed too with Greddy Sandwitch plate and oil filter relocation kit; the oil cooler is located behind the noise of front bumper infront of the Intercooler just above the open mouth of the bumper; good location? Most installs I've seen are behind the passenger side bumper inlet, in front of the wheel. The exit vent can be into the wheel well which is a low pressure region, so it'll actively draw air through the cooler. Sticking it in front of the water radiator is a bit 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' - you increase the oil cooling capacity to take the load off the water cooling system, but then effectively block off part of the water rad to do it, putting the load straight back on. -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellybean Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Thanks Ian, I might re-mount the oil cooler; it was setup like that from Japan ; I just had to replace the oil cooler because the seam weld on the Greddy unit failed But first time on track the other day so might give it another spin but I was happy with the position for road use Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digsy Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Mine personally is at the filter, I figured that this is just prior to the exchange cooler and therefore it'll be pretty much at its hottest. As for the bottom of the sump I can't help but think that'll be the coolest spot, as it's where the oil is stored after cooling. Forgive the slightly egg-suckiness of this but the sump is where the oil is stored after it has been through the engine and absorbed heat, so (ignoring losses to structure and from the bottom of the oil pan) IMHO the sump oil temp should be a good indication of the worst case working oil temp. Oil is removed from the pan, then pumped through the cooler. I reckon the temperature delta between the two will be very small but, yes, the temp at the cooler could be a little higher, so if you want a worst case that's where it would be. We usually measure oil temp in the sump, though. Someone (I think Digsy) told me that 125 was alright for my oil (Silkolene 10w50 I think), 135 is where you should avoid, but I like my margins of safety I figured if it's 125 at the filter it's probably hotter than that in the block/head. 135 is the temperature at which we usually run our lubrication circuit simulations, again as a worst case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Forgive the slightly egg-suckiness of this but the sump is where the oil is stored after it has been through the engine and absorbed heat, so (ignoring losses to structure and from the bottom of the oil pan) IMHO the sump oil temp should be a good indication of the worst case working oil temp. Oil is removed from the pan, then pumped through the cooler. I reckon the temperature delta between the two will be very small but, yes, the temp at the cooler could be a little higher, so if you want a worst case that's where it would be. We usually measure oil temp in the sump, though. Ah I had it in my head that the oil went through the cooler and then back to the sump, of course now I'm thinking about it, it all drains down the bores and block and so forth under gravity, duur So it makes much more sense to pick it up then cool it. Sounds to me in that case that there isn't really much difference between the two sensor sites, so that's good, no-one is "wrong". 135 is the temperature at which we usually run our lubrication circuit simulations, again as a worst case. Cool, so keeping it below 125 will ensure everything remains happy :thumb: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Poached into technical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 The water temp sensor wants to in, or very close to, the head. Where the stock sensor is. What the max water temp should be depends on what pressure you run the cooling system. If you were to aim for a water temp of just over 100 when the alarm sounds you are pretty safe, with the sensor in the stock location. max power is probably around 82 / 85 C though. Max efficiency is probably a good deal higher. It also depends what coolant temp the engine is mapped for. if it's mapped for 100C and you run at 85C then you may be runing at a temp where the fuel and / or ignition maps are no longer optimal. I run my RB26 at 82C. It wouldn't be a suitable temp for a road engine. I run my oil temps up to 130C. I run 20 PSI coolant pressure before the cap lifts. Again, this would be risky on a MKIV with the original heater matrix and core plugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellybean Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I think I am running the 1.5 TRD rad cap , nearly sure its not the 1.3 ; but i have a copper core rad , twice the size of stock I am BPU running stock ECU with a SARD analyse ROM , on road temps since I put in new Toyota 4 Life coolant are about 85 degree mark; on track about 93-98 mark around a small low gear twisty track. I am not sure if the car is running a TRD or OEM thermostat; I presume OEM On track I did notice the overflow coolant tank was overflowing; it is not a stock unit as my Greddy overflow plastic bottle failed(broke apart in my hands one day) so I have the plastic tank out of an Accord; (same capacity as Greddy)! Might be a good choice for me to drop the Rad cap down to a 1.2 bar? Any advise on Water Temps, rad cap pressure , overflow tank please; my Defi temp sensor is the top rad pipe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxluc Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I have a 1.3 bar rad cap on my PWR rad. My temp sensor is also in the top rad pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hartmann Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 It's a bit marginal. I would fit a cooler if you are going to do regular track days. A big cooler is hard to mount and feed and EXIT (just as important as entry air flow) air. If you do mount a big cooler you can remove the oil to water heat exchanger under the oil filter and take some thermal load of the water cooling system. If you run without an extra cooler you need to be running decent fully synthetic oil at 130C, it will take it, but it may be marginal on a hot day. Sounds like a track with lots of low gear work at slow track speeds? On a proper track with high average speeds and in higher gears it may not be an issue. just guessing here, you don't say where you were. is there any disadvantages by doing this ? i´v considering to do this , just to clear the bay a tiny bit and give more access to the oil filter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Probably not if CW recommends it Providing your oil cooler can handle the load, which it should easily do if it's got decent airflow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hartmann Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Probably not if CW recommends it Providing your oil cooler can handle the load, which it should easily do if it's got decent airflow. sure thing mate, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digsy Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 is there any disadvantages by doing this ? i´v considering to do this , just to clear the bay a tiny bit and give more access to the oil filter You will still need an oil cooler of some description, which mean you will still need an adaptor plate between the engine and filter, which might mean you don't end up wth much more clearance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hartmann Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 You will still need an oil cooler of some description, which mean you will still need an adaptor plate between the engine and filter, which might mean you don't end up wth much more clearance. arrrh .. a sandwich plate is alot smaller than the OEM heat exchanger mate it will help big time to bin that .. and sure thing 19rows setrab cooler is going in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digsy Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Didn't know how big the OEM oil cooler is - I've got an NA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caracol Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 (edited) Hi in my 95 tt supra ( single now) i have a hks oil cooler, a mishimoto radiator with 2 electric fans, 1,3 bar cap and a thermostat that open at 82º also from mishimoto, my car is making 1.1 bar, and the the water temp. in normal driving are between 84º 87º, and in fast road it goes up to 100º 105º. The oil temp i can't check because i don't have any sensor for it. Is this temp to high with this specs? Edited September 23, 2012 by caracol (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Whiffin Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 Hi in my 95 tt supra ( single now) i have a hks oil cooler, a mishimoto radiator with 2 electric fans, 1,3 bar cap and a thermostat that open at 82º also from mishimoto, my car is making 1.1 bar, and the the water temp. in normal driving are between 84º 87º, and in fast road it goes up to 100º 105º. The oil temp i can't check because i don't have any sensor for it. Is this temp to high with this specs? That's way to high, water temps should not go above 100deg, that's boiling point. Sounds like you haven't something wrong somewhere. What guage are you using? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 The coolant is under pressure, the whole idea of a pressurised cooling system is to allow water temperatures of well over 100 degrees Celcius without boiling. A road car engine should run around 90C for best efficiency. The 84 degrees C is too cold, the oil will not be driving out moisture if you do not have an oil thermostat, and the ecu may well be adding too much fuel. Put a stock thermostat back in the cooling system. Cold thermostat are ONLY for race engines mapped to run that sort of cold temperature level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caracol Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 That's way to high, water temps should not go above 100deg, that's boiling point. Sounds like you haven't something wrong somewhere. What guage are you using? paul i'm using the stock sensor with haltech platinum sport 2000 and iq3 racepak dash, i dind't tell i also have one new water pump and head gasket. can the dirty in the block make this happen?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Whiffin Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 paul i'm using the stock sensor with haltech platinum sport 2000 and iq3 racepak dash, i dind't tell i also have one new water pump and head gasket. can the dirty in the block make this happen?? Are you sure the dash is configured properly, may be your not getting the correct reading? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caracol Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 Are you sure the dash is configured properly, may be your not getting the correct reading? good question paul but sorry i don't know how can i check it?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Whiffin Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 good question paul but sorry i don't know how can i check it?? Who setup it for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caracol Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Paul I'm gonna send you a pm to not fill this tread with off topic thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Whiffin Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Paul I'm gonna send you a pm to not fill this tread with off topic thing Email would be better, [email protected] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristian_Wraae Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 I have added a HKS type R oil cooler system to my car. I exchanged the HKS oil cooler with a 30 row cooler. I have kept the original water to oil cooler unit as well. I have a temperature sensor mounted in the drain plug on the sump. The oil temperatures are very low and I'm concerned that they are too low. At cruise 80 km/h the oil is at 52 C. It can rise to around 80 if the car just sits at idle with no wind cooling the radiator. Before it would sit at 100 C or a little more. So I was wondering if the thermostat in the HKS system is permanently open or the fact that I kept the stock cooler means that the oil is heated by the stock cooler to more than what the HKS thermostat needs to open more or less fully resulting in all oil getting sent to the oil cooler and then back into the pan? I thought the HKS system was designed to keep the stock oil cooler. Should I removed it or do you think the HKS thermostat is broken? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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