tooquicktostop Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 And you only had a 700hp skyline, you must of done something wrong my boy. Plenty of things wrong mate, plenty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdistc Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Sadly guys, I'm still no further forward with knowing who and what stock components people have run 700bhp with. Jamesy had stock pistons, rods, crank with uprated supporting components like thrust washers, bearings and bolts. Is this typical for a 700bhp build, as a "true" build I assume is referenced to one which is built to last. Mine has a stock head (apart from 264 exhaust cam), stock propshaft (but no drag tyre launches), and had stock A03B (facelift 6 speed) diff. Not much else left stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamesy Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 A lot of people, me included, get waaay to hung up on figures and chasing numbers. A properly setup 600hp Supra will scare the crap out of you, whoop anything else on the road and be a very good fun, driveable fast street car. Having gone from 825hp to 610hp recently i would not want to go above 700 again unless it was a drag only car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamesy Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 A lot of people, me included, get waaay to hung up on figures and chasing numbers. A properly setup 600hp Supra will scare the crap out of you, whoop anything else on the road and be a very good fun, driveable fast street car. Having gone from 825hp to 610hp recently i would not want to go above 700 again unless it was a drag only car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey. Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Mine at 585hp and 530lbft was a blast to drive, manageable and predictable when it was going to loose traction, especially around Devon the roads just don't allow you to stretch the legs of anything with anymore power! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossco Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 So in layman's terms, why are hub figures bullshit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 So in layman's terms, why are hub figures bullshit? Seen it many times, and with my own car, its well documented on the net also. Try this dyno calculator, 700rwhp on a dyno dynamics rolling road = 840 at the hubs on a dynapack. http://mkiv.supras.org.nz/dyno.htm My car did 902bhp at the flywheel at SRR on a dyno dynamics rolling road at 1.5bar, couple of days later it made 975 at the hubs on a dynapack same boost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossco Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 So does this mean a dynapack is less accurate than a dyno dynamics result? What makes it more accurate? Having no dyno experience im just curious. Does it mot make sense to use both and take an average? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DARETT Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 All dyno's have their positives and negatives. Personally I think it's down to the dyno operators. Any dyno can be manipulated to show whatever you want tbh. Try running a big drag tyre on a dyno dynamics dyno and you'll see the figures jump right up. As long as you stick with one dyno to measure your increases while modifying, there's no issue. All the dyno's calculate the HP anyhow, they're all going to give a different result. With regards to the topic, I ran 650 on a stock block without issue. It depends on the mileage of the block and condition, but generally with management like the Syvecs a stock block should be ok IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 So does this mean a dynapack is less accurate than a dyno dynamics result? What makes it more accurate? Having no dyno experience im just curious. Does it mot make sense to use both and take an average? Dyno numbers will always be a big debate, some can handle the truth, others cant. My car put down 1132bhp at the hubs on a dynapack, imo the car has around a real 1000bhp at the crank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampy442 Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Suppose the only real way to accurately get your power figures is an engine dyno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodge Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Wish someone would sit down and explain all this Dyno milarky to me properly cos I'm finding it all a little hard to soak up if I'm honest. Out of interest, where was your car dyno'd Jamesy, and what sort of Dyno? Wasn't it done the same day as Geo and Suprafans car too. So does that mean those quoted figures were wrong too Jamie? We're the figures quoted with 15% added on or not? What sort of Dyno was Lee's car done on as I noticed he has added 15% on too? If a car was to make 1000hp on a dynopak hub Dyno, does that mean its actually 1000hp at the flywheel not the hubs? I really understand it all, there has to be a power loss between the flywheel and the rear wheels through the transmission. Are we loosing this 15% or whatever it is because the dynopak dynos are shit, and if so why hasn't the people at Dynopack done anything about it? Sorry for all the questions guys, think I need some monster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 John, go stick it on a local dyno dynamics rolling road and see what it makes mate. What was your hub Bhp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamesy Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 John, My car made 742hp at SRR. I then had the race head fitted and a few other bits done by Lee and it made 825hp at TDi. Lee's car made his stated hp at TDi also. The guy at TDi and the owner of SRR said you usually have 15% losses for manuals and 20% for autos. Whatever mine was (or wasn't) it was no where near as responsive as my new car. All depends on how they are set up and what for (track/drag/streeet etc) To answer original question my old car had fully uprated engine all bar the stock rods and pistons and race head. As mentioned earlier i will never get caught up chasing numbers again - 600hp with an auto diff and lightning fast spooling turbo is a dream for my driving style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Show me the SRR 742bhp dyno graph Jamsey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamesy Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 No idea where it would be mate. Im sure Ryan stuck it in my build thread somewhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodge Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 John, go stick it on a local dyno dynamics rolling road and see what it makes mate. What was your hub Bhp? My car isn't the issue bud, I'm just a little lost with it all that's all. I just tried to post some questions up I wanted to know that's all. My hub figure was 778 bud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodge Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 John, My car made 742hp at SRR. I then had the race head fitted and a few other bits done by Lee and it made 825hp at TDi. Lee's car made his stated hp at TDi also. The guy at TDi and the owner of SRR said you usually have 15% losses for manuals and 20% for autos. Whatever mine was (or wasn't) it was no where near as responsive as my new car. All depends on how they are set up and what for (track/drag/streeet etc) To answer original question my old car had fully uprated engine all bar the stock rods and pistons and race head. As mentioned earlier i will never get caught up chasing numbers again - 600hp with an auto diff and lightning fast spooling turbo is a dream for my driving style. So what sort of Dyno does TDI have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted June 2, 2012 Author Share Posted June 2, 2012 I thought you had a stock crank with uprated thrust washers jamesy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DARETT Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 If a car was to make 1000hp on a dynopak hub Dyno, does that mean its actually 1000hp at the flywheel not the hubs? Some hub dyno's may be altered in a way to show that. They have an auto correction factor that corrects the power figures according to the conditions they have put in. This is why it depends on the operator. Abbey Motorsport run the Brams racing drag car on their own hub dyno. The engine for this car went on an engine dyno before being installed into the vehicle. On the engine dyno it produced 1476hp at the crank. I.e BHP. The same engine installed into the car makes around 1250 at the hubs iirc on Abbey's dynapack. A loss of around 15% However if they wanted to, they could manipulate the dyno to read a figure similar to the crank figure.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DARETT Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 If a car was to make 1000hp on a dynopak hub Dyno, does that mean its actually 1000hp at the flywheel not the hubs? Some hub dyno's may be altered in a way to show that. They have an auto correction factor that corrects the power figures according to the conditions they have put in. This is why it depends on the operator. Abbey Motorsport run the Brams racing drag car on their own hub dyno. The engine for this car went on an engine dyno before being installed into the vehicle. On the engine dyno it produced 1476hp at the crank. I.e BHP. The same engine installed into the car makes around 1250 at the hubs iirc on Abbey's dynapack. A loss of around 15% However if they wanted to, they could manipulate the dyno to read a figure similar to the crank figure.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky49 Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 How does anybody know what the losses are for manual or auto. Isnt it a made up figure that someone presumes is the correct losses from engine to hubs. What ever part of the car is attached to the dyno be it wheel, hubs or engine then surely thats all we can go off. My car on two different dyno at the same boost was only about 3hp difference at the hubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 I ran 650 on a stock block without issue. It depends on the mileage of the block and condition, but generally with management like the Syvecs a stock block should be ok IMO. Was that wheel horse power Darett? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee P Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 (edited) I'm gona try and not get too involved in this but will make a few points. First off a hub figure is not a wheel figure anyway so cannot be directly compared to one. It is the power figure measured at the hub not including rotational mass of the wheel and tyre. This means it will be a higher figure than a wheel figure on a rolling road. The TDI hub dyno is one of the only dynos that can be calibrated to make sure it's accurate, most others can't. Any dyno including the TDI hub dyno can give altered correction factors that can be controlled, it's upto the dyno operator to do his job properly and be fair. They can all be manipulated by the air temp correction, the TDI dyno only gives hub figures and will not calculate (guess) flywheel but it does correct for air temp as does the dyno dynamics. The SRR dyno dynamics is considered a very accurate dyno as the figures are very reserved and it's a great bench mark for us to compare. The problem with it and big power cars is they will not get traction. The way the Dyno dynamics works is the car should be strapped in a way that it moves up out of the rollers slighty and on to the front ones. The problem is big power supras come on boost so hard and the rollers are so worn that there is just no grip. The only way around this is to strap the car down so tight that it can't move, this helps traction but not only kills the tyres in about 2 seconds but saps alot the of power from the run. This is the reason we see such different readings from the 2 dynos with these cars. Sam from TDI explains it the best way "a rolling road is like trying to measure a piston with a rubber caliper gauge, you will get a different measurement everytime depending on how hard you squeeze it together" it all depends on how it's strapped down, tyre compounds, temperatures and a lot of other factors. So if we can strap a car down on a rolling road the same way everytime we should get some decent consistent readings but it will still never be as accurate as a hub dyno. The is the reason the race teams, the likes of shell and other big companies use hub dynos for testing. You can run it all day long and get very accurate readings. I think one of the big problems here is we all got a little carried away with adding percentages on, a hub figure is exactly what it is and we should take it as that. Some of the hub dynos do read over but like I said its the responsibility of the operator and I could make one give out a high figure just by manipulating the intake temps. The only way to directly compare is to use the same dyno everytime. We need to stop guessing the flywheel figures and just use wheel and hub figures, also we need a whip round so we can donate to SRR to buy some new rollers lol... More importantly a dyno is a tuning tool and not an indication of how fast a car is. Get out there and enjoy them, how they drive is much more important than how much power they have. Edited June 3, 2012 by Lee P (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamesy Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 (edited) Well said mate Agree about SRR - until we all started to get to silly Power and lost traction there it was a great benchmark to all compare spec to bhp. I think my R888's lasted 4 runs before melting Last time before having to opt for TDi. Edited June 3, 2012 by Jamesy (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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