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front of engine oil leek/seep, advice please?


-Welsh-Stealth-

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i have come across an oil leek from the front of the engine. i first spotted it a couple of days ago when i had the car on the ramp at work fitting my new damper. i noticed oil on my fmic piping, it sits under the crank pulley. and after being in the workshop a couple of hours left a single drip on the floor.

 

having a quick look at my car today i noticed a small patch on the drive... on further inspection i've looked at the source and it seems to be coming from behind the timing belt cover. it looks like it starts behind the aux belt tensioner. is this the dreaded oil pump seal? and does this mean i can no longer drive the car until fixed?

i have had no oil warning light and there is still plenty of oil in the sump. it had 1/2 oil& last i checked a few weeks ago it was 3/4 full.bearing in mind being a turbo and all...

thoughts and advice from the knowledgeable is very much appreciated.

thanks in advance

Lewis

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I had this about 3 weeks ago, front crank seal went. Had it changed and the following week it went again, new oil pump got fitted and touch wood everything is ok now. Hope it is just the seal as changing the oil pump is quite a big job.

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Yeah will do Jason ;) just seeing what people thought before I got stuck in, just like to crack on with jobs as soon as I get started lol! Quite impatient :D

Currently sat on Craig's driving picking up the spare engine for the rebuild :D may drop it in& work on my original engine. It made 222bhp on the dyno. Anyways will have a word in a minute when he gets here ;)

I know he had it& did try it when I tried doing the timing belt over a year ago& it didn't Wana go.in the end had to take it to Osaka Toyota specialists in Newport, but hey may be easier now it's been done once!? & do the pulley like I should of last time...

 

Anyways Rob why did it go a second time in such close time??? Seal not put in properly?

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I doubt that as it was Darren at Whifbitz that done it. Paul said to keep an eye on it as the cause is high crank case pressure, and if it goes again it usually means there is other problems. When I took it back up to Paul, he done a leak-down test and nothing came up so Darren changed the oil pump and so far so good. The parts an't alot of money just the labour really mate.

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I doubt that as it was Darren at Whifbitz that done it. Paul said to keep an eye on it as the cause is high crank case pressure, and if it goes again it usually means there is other problems. When I took it back up to Paul, he done a leak-down test and nothing came up so Darren changed the oil pump and so far so good. The parts an't alot of money just the labour really mate.

 

There have been many arguments about this and the upshot when it gets technical is it is NOT caused by crank case compression but simply a worn oil pump, too much oil builds up behind the seal as the pump cannot drain it away, hence some of the 'modified' pumps have the drain hole opened up, you can also shorten the spring on the seal to clamp it down harder as well as glueing it in. A leak down test is not definitive as it can be the oil control rings and the leak down is just really testing compression and the compression rings, fitting a single is no reason for the crankcase comp to increase, I just did marham with no breather hose on the drivers cam cover and not one tiny bit of oil is on the cam cover.

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Yea Paul did explain a leak down test doesn't show up everything but I asked him to do it anyway. We went with just the seal change at first, didn't sort it and then change the oil pump and it looks like it has. Happy days.

 

Pauls advice was spot on, I reckon now 3 out of 10 front seals have to have a pump fitted within 2 weeks of doing the seal, I even offer a discount if they have to come back for a pump !!! A few customers now by pass the seal and just say fit a pump.

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Cheers for all the input! Just got back home. Looks like the spare engine is the better build engine coming from an auto& all. So looks like I'll replace the seal...& may aswell do it properly& get a new pump in there aswell.just wondering if this is possible with the engine in the car? Or does the subframe get in the way?...hoist or not to hoist?

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It's either an engine out or a subframe out job, take your pick. Not a nice job though.

 

Are you sure it's the FMS though? From your description of it being high I would be more inclined to think that it was the cam seal(s). I would certainly look there first.

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Thanks Scott ;) will give it a going over in the morning. But pretty sure it's not the camshaft seals. I've got the Perspex pulley cover& haven't noticed anything. But I could be wrong, which would be nice!? Ha ha :) but yeah I was wondering why the seepage was all the ways up by the aux belt tensioner. I mean it hasn't dropped the oil either, meh, I'm sure a quick physical check in the morning will solve all...& lighten the wallet :D

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Thanks Scott ;) will give it a going over in the morning. But pretty sure it's not the camshaft seals. I've got the Perspex pulley cover& haven't noticed anything. But I could be wrong, which would be nice!? Ha ha :) but yeah I was wondering why the seepage was all the ways up by the aux belt tensioner. I mean it hasn't dropped the oil either, meh, I'm sure a quick physical check in the morning will solve all...& lighten the wallet :D

 

You won't see the oil through that bud. You need to take the top 2 timing belt covers off to get a proper look of where the oil is coming from. There is a black cover in front of the cam seals that means you won't be able to see through the perspex. It ends just below the cam wheels and just above the aux tensioner so it's definitely where I would be starting.

 

Oil pump and seal is going to be 20-30 hours of work I would have thought so best to go for the easy option first :D

 

If doing the pump though, be sure to do the cam seals & the waterpump at the same time. As well doing as much as you can while its in bits, for the sake of what it costs for those parts.

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Deffinately sounds about right! Will whip them off in the morning :)

Could do the crank etc over a weekend. but ideally I want to do everything you just mentioned above to the new engine along with everything else as I rebuild it :) but yeah if the crank seal is the problem then I don't see the point of scrimping now just to be stung for it later on ;) thanks again Scott

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On inspection it looks like the camshaft seals. As like Scotts said it seems to be seeping from behind the plastic guard between the pulleys& engine itself. It seems to around the top of the water pump& the top radiator hose. I'm running it up to temperature to see if the seep becomes more apparent. However there seems to be excessive wobble on the crank pulley?! As if it hasn't been machined straight?! Is this normal& I just haven't noticed it before? Or is it really a worn crank seal???

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Wobble on the crank pulley would suggest it doesn't have a lot of time left so I would think about replacing that.

 

The crank seal only seals the crank from the oil, it doesn't balance anything or keep anything (other than the oil) in check.

 

Definitely sounds like the cam seals but I would definitely be swapping that pulley too.

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Yeah just jacked it up& the rubber damper on the crank pulley is perished on a 1/4 of the outside where it seats on the outer part of the pulley. Deffinately the camshaft aswell with amount of oil on the underside of the water pump.

Thing is if I'm going to attack the pulley shouldn't I do the seal aswell just to save going back. Or should I leave well alone to save disturbing anything & possibly making it worse. Eg the oil pump?!

 

Cheers Rob ;) something I should have done when I attacked the timing belt really. Ah well we live& learn.got a spare rad but really wouldn't want to damage my nice shiney one lol!

Edited by -Welsh-Stealth- (see edit history)
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If the crank seal is ok that would suggest the pump is ok. I wouldn't touch it to be honest mate. Very few crank seal failures are actually down to the seal itself, it's generally the pump, so unless you fancy doing the pump just for the hell of it I honestly wouldn't bother.

 

For the cam seals you will need some silicone sealant stuff so make sure you have it to hand before you start :)

 

Torque wrench is also a must and remember to follow the proper torquing pattern for the cams.

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Fair enough. I'll leave that alone& keep my fingers crossed then.

Really not looking forward to the crank pulley though. Last time I had a pop it was like chuck Norris had put it in there!had a look at the spare head in my man cave(shed) & my snap on gun should make light work of the cam pulleyss :) can't wait to find out how much a crank pulley is :D lol

Slight problem with torquing the rocker in sequence though... There is no Haynes manual.i have the massive download thingy though, would it be in there?

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Fair enough. I'll leave that alone& keep my fingers crossed then.

Really not looking forward to the crank pulley though. Last time I had a pop it was like chuck Norris had put it in there!had a look at the spare head in my man cave(shed) & my snap on gun should make light work of the cam pulleyss :) can't wait to find out how much a crank pulley is :D lol

Slight problem with torquing the rocker in sequence though... There is no Haynes manual.i have the massive download thingy though, would it be in there?

 

Cam pulleys come off no bother. Yeah check out the homepage bud, the manuals are there. The torquing sequence is in the engine manual :)

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