Who would of been at fault?

[erol_h]

Yesterday as i was travelling back from a job i was approaching a roundabout its a 3 lane roundabout just as you exit the a13 from dagenham to join the a406. The lights are green for me im approaching the roundabout at about 40mph as i can easily go round at that speed. As im just merging onto the roundabout my worker shouts at me to stop as i look to my right i see a police car flying past me i slammed on my brakes abs kicking away and i missed the him by inches. The police was going full pelt through a red light with his sirens on the driver had no idea i was there as he didn't react to me at all. The passenger officer sh1t his pants as he saw us coming towards him and so did i. If my worker did not shout at me i would of smashed into them hard sending them flying god knows how badly i would of hurt them. I did not see him at all as i glanced to my right but the police were driving as some speed as there car was leaning to one side as he went round the roundabout.

[Scott]

The police would have been at fault bud. There are of course certain rules to driving with the blues and twos on, and crossing a red light is featured highly in that rulebook. Of course they are allowed through them but they have to use extreme caution where it is necessary.

[SupraD06]

I would imagine it would still fall back to the same old rule, and that is that you hit him rather than the other way around. We had one of the fabricated accidents happen to us a few months back in our work van, three indian chaps in front of us all traveling at around 40mph, just as the island was coming up you could see that there was no other car in sight, then all of a sudden he locked up and we smashed into the back of him. He had no insurence, tax etc, was'nt even his car, yet we ended up paying out instead of him.

[erol_h]

thank god i didnt hit them with the speed i was going at plus his speed i wouldnt think to imagen how bad it would of turned out. I absolutly crapped myself for a second i thought it was going to be a sure hit.

[Scott]

I would imagine it would still fall back to the same old rule, and that is that you hit him rather than the other way around. We had one of the fabricated accidents happen to us a few months back in our work van, three indian chaps in front of us all traveling at around 40mph, just as the island was coming up you could see that there was no other car in sight, then all of a sudden he locked up and we smashed into the back of him. He had no insurence, tax etc, was'nt even his car, yet we ended up paying out instead of him.

 

You got shafted there bud. The legal system is there to protect you in those instances. The driver would have been in serious trouble if that happened anywhere else.

[Josh]

Did you beep at him and get their attention or did it all happen too fast?

[erol_h]

true but i would of smshed straight into the passenger side door i missed him by inches away.

[erol_h]

happend way to fast for me to react only just managed to stop the van in time but the police definetly knew what he did as his passengers face dropped as he saw us coming towards his door. Plus my worker was kind enough to show his gratitude with his middle finger.

[SupraD06]

You got shafted there bud. The legal system is there to protect you in those instances. The driver would have been in serious trouble if that happened anywhere else.

 

Ill have to have a look back into exactly what was paid for. But thinking about it, im now not so sure we had to pay for their car to be fixed, but definitely had to pay for ours. you hear about it all the time, people set up these accidents to get money out of you, even though they cause the accident or force you into hitting them from behind etc. Seems like 9/10 they just base it on who hit who

[Scott]

Ill have to have a look back into exactly what was paid for. But thinking about it, im now not so sure we had to pay for their car to be fixed, but definitely had to pay for ours. you hear about it all the time, people set up these accidents to get money out of you, even though they cause the accident or force you into hitting them from behind etc. Seems like 9/10 they just base it on who hit who

 

 

Yes but in those cases the cars are fully insured and all the drivers are all above board, they have to be in order to put in any insurance claims

 

There is no way you would have had to pay for their car, you wouldn't even need to pay for your own if you went through the insurance (but you would lose your no claims etc). Insurance is there to protect you against uninsured drivers as well. It's down to you whether you claim or not though, it's a crappy situation but it's the way of the world.

 

BTW those guys weren't out to scam anyone by the sounds of it, the driver was probably just not very good at all. He doesn't sound like the sharpest tool in the box if he deliberately caused an accident which would leave him facing a HUGE ban & fine.

 

 

With regards to this particular case it wouldn't make any odds who hit who, the police jumped the red in an unsafe manner when it was unsafe to do so...... open and shut case.

[Abz]

Yesterday as i was travelling back from a job i was approaching a roundabout its a 3 lane roundabout just as you exit the a13 from dagenham to join the a406. The lights are green for me im approaching the roundabout at about 40mph as i can easily go round at that speed. As im just merging onto the roundabout my worker shouts at me to stop as i look to my right i see a police car flying past me i slammed on my brakes abs kicking away and i missed the him by inches. The police was going full pelt through a red light with his sirens on the driver had no idea i was there as he didn't react to me at all. The passenger officer sh1t his pants as he saw us coming towards him and so did i. If my worker did not shout at me i would of smashed into them hard sending them flying god knows how badly i would of hurt them. I did not see him at all as i glanced to my right but the police were driving as some speed as there car was leaning to one side as he went round the roundabout.

 

I know which roundabout you are on & I know what you meaning, coming from a 3 lane dual carriageway you can carry that speed. As mentioned if you did hit him it would have been his fault. Saying that, didn't you hear the sirens? They would have said that if you did, but as you said it could happen quickly from the A13 to the roundabout.

 

8 or so months ago I had police Astra car on A13 make a sharp exit from the right to the left lane at high speed! Nearly clipped my front bumper, lucky I braked & not too hard as another panda car went behind me at the same time. The Astra in front was tilted really hard,, lucky it didn't roll over, looked awesome though.

 

[SupraD06]

 

BTW those guys weren't out to scam anyone by the sounds of it, the driver was probably just not very good at all. He doesn't sound like the sharpest tool in the box if he deliberately caused an accident which would leave him facing a HUGE ban & fine.

 

Normaly i would tend to agree, but as soon a we got out the car, he was in a huge hurry to get away, i made sure i took photos of him/car etc, then we rang to notify the insurence of the accident, and a few days later we had a call saying it was a stolen car, had been used in over 5 other fabricated accidents and all the names etc were not correct.

[erol_h]

he did have his sirens on but i didnt hear a thing my music wasn't that loud i just guess the speed he was going at, the speed i was going at the road noise and my radio completly cancelled out his sirens noise. It did happen in a quick flash well i think he had his sirens on his lights were flashing i just cant remember hearing a sound

[MattP]

The Law would side with you on this occation unless the police believe that you were driving carelessly bearing in mind that this would be hard to prove using the reasonable man method IE: a reasonable person would expect at the above location when the green light is illuminated in your lane you have right of way henceforth you cannot be charged with careless/dangerous driving.

 

Unless ofcourse you had plenty of time to react and a clear line of sight to the police vehicle all of which investigated and vetted by a RTC unit however from what you are saying this would also not be the case as it was all rather sudden.

 

If either of the vehicles had collided as a result of the police officer running a red light at speed without the officer showing reasonable justification for his erratic driving in such a scenario the officer could be Suspended and face serious charges depending on the collision outcome.

 

Either way I wouldnt worry about it you were in the right....... Fight the power and all that jazz

[Morpheus]

Either way I wouldnt worry about it you were in the right.......

 

(This is what I was going to say but I didn't, as it sounds too much like a rant).

 

Since when did that make any difference? We're way down the rabbit hole. You have no rights. End of. If you fit a certain profile, you can simply disappear. Just ask the guys in Guantanamo.

 

Only in a Republic do the citizens have any inalienable rights, (those which no-one can take away), and even in America, The Constitution is on life-support, surrounded by crooked doctors. In a 'Democracy', (a con-trick designed to make you think you have a choice while the same interests fund and run both or more sides), The State grants you rights because it's mob rule and they don't recognise your God given freedom from government harrassment because they don't recognise the existence of God as a viable alternative to outright random chaos and therefore, he who has the biggest stick, rules the roost with impunity, if you'll pardon my mixed metaphor!

 

The police could easily cook up some story to cover themselves erol_h, like you were "obviously exceeding the speed limit at the point of impact" or the lack of skidmarks prove that you didn't show due caution yourself or you were seen to be on your mobile, etc.

 

It's their word against yours. Simple as that. They drive this way because they know that they can get away with it and they won't have to pay for the damage.

 

One day that police driver will kill someone and maybe then, show some common sense. Until then, he's a loose cannon and it's only a matter of time. Obviously not intending any harm to either party, it would have been better for everyone but yourselves if you had hit him erol_h.

 

That way, it would have nipped it in the bud and got on the news to perhaps publicise the issue again, as that's a major roundabout and would have caused a serious tailback in every direction. If you hit him, you'd have probably been unharmed. Speeding police are the greatest danger on the roads today apart from pikeys and black ice, imho. Sorry just ice. Black ice is racist, isn't it? Oh, hang on, that's coloured ice. Anyway, watch out for it guys, as it's that time of year again. Gotta be extra careful.

 

Sure glad I didn't say all that in the end.

 

BHDmzR4Dfgw

[Rob]

Weeeellll erol, don't forget that a green light only means proceed if the way is clear, or words to that effect. I don't think you would get prosecuted if you hit each other but as a general rule, and this was a good lesson for you, just cos its green don't mean you can waft through without so much as a glance to either side. To do so will lead to...well, an incident just like this. I am always wary of crossing junctions and level crossings for this reason.

 

They drive this way because they know that they can get away with it and they won't have to pay for the damage

He may of course been speeding along on a shout, maybe to assist an "officer down" or a violent attack under way, or a robbery of some sort, given he had blue lights flashing. You know, the sort of things that police do in the real world when they aren't victimising the innocent downtrodden masses or blatting about at high speed for no reason, risking their lives and careers in the Morpheous world.

[Morpheus]

He may of course been speeding along on a shout, maybe to assist an "officer down" or a violent attack under way, or a robbery of some sort, given he had blue lights flashing. You know, the sort of things that police do in the real world when they aren't victimising the innocent downtrodden masses or blatting about at high speed for no reason, risking their lives and careers in the Morpheous world.

 

Yes, of course he was in a hurry to get somewhere for a good reason - hopefully - but what's the point in risking your life, your passenger's life and multiple other people's lives on the way to only potentially save/help/assist another? The net benefit of this equation is probably negative in the long run, as without better judgement, the police driver couldn't control the outcome in a worst case scenario, e.g. our erol_h here having slower reflexes or God forbid, driving a less capable car.

 

In other words, a serious accident becomes absolutely inevitable. The fact that this near-miss happened atall, is hard evidence of exactly the attitude you seem unable to comprehend. In the real world this is what people are like.

 

Complacent.

[Swampy442]

I'm with Rob, didn't you look right before you entered the roundabout?

[MattP]

Weeeellll erol, don't forget that a green light only means proceed if the way is clear, or words to that effect. I don't think you would get prosecuted if you hit each other but as a general rule, and this was a good lesson for you, just cos its green don't mean you can waft through without so much as a glance to either side. To do so will lead to...well, an incident just like this. I am always wary of crossing junctions and level crossings for this reason.

 

 

He may of course been speeding along on a shout, maybe to assist an "officer down" or a violent attack under way, or a robbery of some sort, given he had blue lights flashing. You know, the sort of things that police do in the real world when they aren't victimising the innocent downtrodden masses or blatting about at high speed for no reason, risking their lives and careers in the Morpheous world.

 

 

The problem with this thread is that there is two conversations going on one about LAW and the other about OPINION the above^^^^ being OPINION.

 

Heres some reference material to have a quick gander at pay special attention to the second link that explains police officers comments on the series of events

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2084164/Father-killed-knocked-police-car-answering-999-call.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-11711949

[Abz]

I'm with Rob, didn't you look right before you entered the roundabout?

 

I think you'd have to understand the road layout for this, obviously you can look right but by the time you go from the 3 lane dual carriageway into the large roundabout you are travelling at say close to 40mph, the officer is traveling also at 40mph in the opposite direction. That's nearly 80mph collision, by the time you look right & notice out of all the standing traffic one car seeks out, unless you got a serious brake setup & good reaction an accident is inevitable.

[Rob]

The problem with this thread is that there is two conversations going on one about LAW and the other about OPINION the above^^^^ being OPINION.

 

Heres some reference material to have a quick gander at pay special attention to the second link that explains police officers comments on the series of events

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2084164/Father-killed-knocked-police-car-answering-999-call.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-11711949

 

Ok fair point.

Here is the Law...http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_070561.pdf

Particularly

GREEN means you may go on if the way is clear. Take special care if you intend to turn left or right and give way to pedestrians who are crossing

 

Abz says

I think you'd have to understand the road layout for this, obviously you can look right but by the time you go from the 3 lane dual carriageway into the large roundabout you are travelling at say close to 40mph, the officer is traveling also at 40mph in the opposite direction. That's nearly 80mph collision, by the time you look right & notice out of all the standing traffic one car seeks out, unless you got a serious brake setup & good reaction an accident is inevitable.

If it were not a light controlled roundabout, would it still be acceptable to enter it at 40mph without really checking if the right-hand way is clear? Not really, it would be highly dangerous and the driver would cetainly be at fault for not giving way to the right on a roundabout if there was a collison.

What's different here if course is that its a light-controlled roundabout, so Abz has right of way. However, we all remember the saying about putting "At least I had Right of Way" on your headstone. He has right of way, but with due regard to the note above in the Highway Code, and not forgetting that emergency vehicles also have right of way and can pass through red lights

 

The Highway Code Rule 219 says :- Emergency and Incident Support vehicles. You should look and listen for ambulances, fire engines, police, doctors or other emergency vehicles using flashing blue, red or green lights and sirens or flashing headlights, or Highways Agency Traffic Officer and Incident Support vehicles using flashing amber lights. When one approaches do not panic. Consider the route of such a vehicle and take appropriate action to let it pass, while complying with all traffic signs.

 

Now I understand that we all take a green light at face value, despite what I said, I don't always fully check 100% of the time. Sometimes it slips my mind, but thats me. Its your life in your hands, if you want to breeze through, safe in the knowledge that no other car driver is going to jump the lights, or a copper isn't going to come hareing through, you take that risk, but don't do it if I'm a passenger.

Similarly, if you've called the police because someone is breaking into your house or assaulting your wife and kids, you want them there pretty damn quick, and you certainly don't want some idiot to step off the kerb without looking and destroy the cop car that's en-route to save you.

Those links are all very well but they don't really enhance this debate. Yes there are some nasty coppers about, there are nasty people in all walks of life...look.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3391897.stm Oh no, all doctors are evil murderers.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/fred-west-confessed-to-20-more-killings-1581855.html..Oh no, all builders are evil murderers.

I mean I could go on.

[Scott]

I agree with the point about looking right etc, but if there was an accident the police would have been in the wrong.

 

The thing that the op needs to look at is the fact that it was his passenger that noticed rather than him. Given that they were entering a roundabout, I assume in a RHD car, I would have thought the flashing lights would have first alerted the driver... or at least both parties at the same time, so I am surprised that it took a shout from them to get the braking proceedure underway.

 

I don't by anymeans treat a roundabout with lights in the same manor as I do one without. If all you guys do then there is either a certain congregation of rare drivers all on this forum or a congregation of liars. I always look right when entering a roundabout regardless of whether it is controlled or not, as there is always an idiot on the road ready to jump a red. The main difference when I am doing so will be the speed at which I do it, in a 40 on a large roundabout with lights in operation I will have no issue with heading towards that roundabout at 40mph so my entry speed onto the roundabout will be far different from that of one that isn't controlled.

 

At the end of the day it's always going to come down to the road and it's layout as to how I would personally drive. In this instance the op could have been more observant and possibly avoided the accident a lot more comfortably than they did, but IMO it would still be the police massively in the wrong.

[Abz]

I understand where you are coming from Rob & I do agree as Scott mentioned above about looking to the right.

 

This is a light controlled roundabout & even if entry speed was slower at 30mph, the terminal collision would have still been 60mph.

 

Hopefully the OP will take other people's view, as Rob said it is only your life at hand

[ellis]

Was your stereo on loud? Curious how a passenger on the left was able to see a car on his and your right and you neither saw nor heard it.

Other than that I'm not bothered!

[Morpheus]

Curious how a passenger on the left was able to see a car on his and your right and you neither saw nor heard it.

 

Perhaps he was too busy looking where he was going or just as importantly, where someone else was going next to/behind him?

 

I've driven that same route many times and that roundabout does need a lot of concentration as to which lane to get in and where everyone else is. I wouldn't blame anyone at that particular point if they were looking in their left mirror.

 

The passenger, having no control over the car and fearing for their lives, (as one does when being driven by someone else!), probably had nothing better to do than watch out for potential dangers.

 

I really dislike that roundabout and think it's actually quite dangerous in it's layout, as many are. If you don't already know which lane to take as you approach from the East, you have no option to change safely without extreme caution and can very easily be forced to take the wrong exit. This alone would be enough to 'divert' a driver's focus onto where they are going rather than a relatively rare emergency vehicle or other driver that might run a red light without themselves even slowing down, incase someone didn't see or hear them or have time to give way.

 

Most such collisions if they do happen, will be down to unfortunate timing, that is, they strike you as highly unlikely but in fact become inevitable unless everyone drives very defensively, since there are something like 24 million motor vehicle journeys per day in The U.K.

 

It's actually staggering how few accidents there are.

 

The bottom line is to learn from experience and never credit anyone ever again with any common sense whatsoever!