Max bhp from Hybrids 550 rwhp???

[JamieP]

Even with the RWHP figure? I don't even know what terminal he done but I remember his avatar showing a high 10.

 

Yes torque convertor distorts the dyno numbers, 132mph iirc, 71mm turbo.

[mellonman]

can us hybrids make 550 rwhp theres only one way to find out ......... FIGHT

[DARETT]

This arguments done to death. No matter what people will always think they read higher over there.

 

Interesting to see a Supra going 248mph in a standing mile with 1200whp though..(Tommy Banh made 1450whp which according to some would be 1400fwhp)

[Scott]

This arguments done to death. No matter what people will always think they read higher over there.

 

Interesting to see a Supra going 248mph in a standing mile with 1200whp though..(Tommy Banh made 1450whp which according to some would be 1400fwhp)

 

 

That's good going!

 

I don't think it's really a there and here thing (although that will always be the running joke), I think it's more to do with different dynos reading differently. It will also be a lot down to what variances are taken into account. For example can you not stick the AIT into the exhaust to instantly gain about 200hp? There are lots of different things taken into account other than just how much force the car is rotating the rollers/hub by.... which would be a better indication of power IMO.

 

When I was on the MR2 forum Thor was seen as the benchmark/yardstick for power figures. That is to say that a lot of cars had their power measured there and it was where comparisons were made the most. Other dynos around would read more, some would read less... it was just the "yardstick". In this forum SRR was always the "yardstick". With the likes of JP, hodge, Johnny, Lee, Dude... etc, etc, etc going for such massive power it's just not feasible to measure those cars on the SRR rolling road (not for a lack of trying). Cars who have been to SRR for a power figure have also been to Thor and the readings at Thor have been MUCH higher. This would indicate that the people who ran their MR2s at Thor would get less power at SRR. This isn't to say SRR is right and Thor is wrong, although SRR has measured a LOT of stock cars and hit around the expected manufacturers figures.

 

The whole US/UK HP thing has been done to death, as has the downhill dragstrip thing.... it's a bit of a running joke. In all seriousness though, US cars come over here and make less power on our dynos than they have on US soil. This has been the case many many times, even the 500 Mustang barely made 430hp on a rolling road on Topgear. Hennessey Viper, etc etc... the list goes on but it's neither here nor there really. You can only really compare with cars around you, it's just a bit of a kick in the teeth when people look at the UK cars and think they are underpowered and making less power at the same tune as in other areas.... when IMO it's down to the measurement and not the tune.

 

In the US are mustang dynos not known as "heartbreakers"? With the other types (Dynojet?) being more optimistic with the figures quoted? If so this is basically my entire point. Are mustang dynos made by mustang? Just wondering if that would have been used to verify the 500hp in the 500 mustang before making 430 or so here.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Scott
always spell hennessey wrong... almost did it again lol. (see edit history)

[JamieP]

Its the same dynos all over the world scott, US use dynojet, dynapack, dyno dynamics as do we, iirc GT arts dyno was a mustang.

[Scott]

Its the same dynos all over the world scott, US use dynojet, dynapack, dyno dynamics as do we, iirc GT arts dyno was a mustang.

 

Yeah, that's my point though. The US/UK thing always comes up, but I have always maintained that every dyno will read differently.

 

I would love to see more about how the dyno comes about its figure. It would be great to take all the correction factors out of the mix and just measure the actual power at the wheels of a car to see what it could do vs measuring it with all the correction stuff.

[Guest JohnSupra1]

No one have done this hybrids turbo conversionn in UK before but i'm not sure Dude done one customer while ago i think (somewhere thread on here), it was on UK spec.

 

My personally i rather to keep stay Stock turbo BPU or buy PHR T61 turbo kit if i want more power.

 

I belive stock turbo is more reliable than Hybrids. End of the day, do what you pay for!

[Supra Kong]

Yeah, that's my point though. The US/UK thing always comes up, but I have always maintained that every dyno will read differently.

 

I would love to see more about how the dyno comes about its figure. It would be great to take all the correction factors out of the mix and just measure the actual power at the wheels of a car to see what it could do vs measuring it with all the correction stuff.

That would give you a figure you can't relate to, unless everyone did the same.

Whether their reading is right or wrong, at least they are all wrong so you know roughly where you at!

I know what I mean!!

[JamieP]

Yeah, that's my point though. The US/UK thing always comes up, but I have always maintained that every dyno will read differently.

 

I would love to see more about how the dyno comes about its figure. It would be great to take all the correction factors out of the mix and just measure the actual power at the wheels of a car to see what it could do vs measuring it with all the correction stuff.

 

I think you should just not worry about it so much every dyno will read a little different on different days and depending how hard the car has been strapped down etc, its never going to be a fine art.

 

What does speak that them turbos work is the terminal times the car did at the drag strip.

[DARETT]

All dyno's will read differently and you can manipulate any dyno if you really want as well, but that's why I think performance figures paired with dyno figures are a good combination to estimate power.

 

I know manufacturer cars have made less power over here, like the Hennessy, but with modified cars using similar setups all over the world there's not much room for argument.

I actually think that thanks to Ryan's mapping skills the cars over here are making more power than in the US and alot of people over there are starting to recognise that the UK tuning scene is moving forward very quickly.

It also helps that alot more people are looking for more power nowadays.

 

Alot of the differences between the dynojet and DD dyno's is the way they measure power.

Dynojets have the tyre sitting on the actual roller, rather than climbing the roller on a DD.

This is why strapping makes such a big difference.

In OZ they have no issue getting a 1200 whp car on a DD dyno and make good power. If we could strap the cars like that then maybe it would make a fairer comparison

[Scott]

That would give you a figure you can't relate to, unless everyone did the same.

Whether their reading is right or wrong, at least they are all wrong so you know roughly where you at!

I know what I mean!!

 

I know what you mean bud but it's all just pub talk at the end of the day. If you are unhappy with the car is making simply take it to the dyno around the corner?

 

Not really what I'm after. What I mean is, just out of curiosity, to see the difference the adjustments actually make to the output figure. Just to see if there is a lot in it, not to actually use that as the default measurement of the cars power.... as it will always be different on the actual road.

 

It's human nature to always want the best power figure from your car. I am a little different in that I'm a pessimist, I would rather quote the lowest power figure I atained as I would then know for a fact it was making AT LEAST that power (again that would only be in comparison to compared dynos though). FWIW I'll be getting my car mapped on TDI like a lot of the guys have done, I'll be taking that figure with a pinch of salt and quoting RHHP like everyone else does. Like Jamie I think the figure is closer to FWHP but it's pointless saying any different as it's all debateable and noone has done the proper groundwork to say anything concrete.

[DARETT]

I think you should just not worry about it so much every dyno will read a little different on different days and depending how hard the car has been strapped down etc, its never going to be a fine art.

 

What does speak that them turbos work is the terminal times the car did at the drag strip.

 

:thumbsup:

[Scott]

I think you should just not worry about it so much every dyno will read a little different on different days and depending how hard the car has been strapped down etc, its never going to be a fine art.

 

What does speak that them turbos work is the terminal times the car did at the drag strip.

 

 

I try not to but it annoys me when we seem like the poor cousins who can't make the power that other people can with the same cars lol.

 

I really don't want to get into the terminal debate again but we know that TDR managed 120mph+ with a BPU Supra. Even assuming that Brians car was the most powerful measured in the UK at 450fwhp would it really take another 200hp to make that 9mph? If so I'm guessing Dude was making around 900hp in his 10.7 sec 140mph trap?

 

The US BPU Supras all make 400+ RWHP yet we can only manage 400+ fwhp. The stock power of a Supra in the US is 320RWHP, here it is 326fwhp.

 

It just doesn't add up for me. Sorry I mention those facts a lot but whereas the high power cars can be debated by terminal traps etc (although I'm guessing they are being compared with mostly US cars with US quoted RWHP) the stock power and BPU power can't really be debated IMO.

[JamieP]

Your facts are all over the place Scott, dude trapped at 132mph, tdr's best 1/4 time trapped at 114mph, There is a lot of factors to consider in all results, nothing is ever black and white, tdr's car was auto with a high stall, who knows how true them dyno figures are, although with a trap speed of 114mph they sound about right to me.

Edited January 28, 2012 by JamieP (see edit history)

[Scott]

Your facts are all over the place Scott, dude trapped at 132mph, tdr's best 1/4 time trapped at 114mph, There is a lot of factors to consider in all results, nothing is ever black and white, tdr's car was auto with a high stall, who knows how true them dyno figures are, although with a trap speed of 114mph they sound about right to me.

 

The trap speeds aren't over the place. TDR trapped 121mph iirc, it just wasn't during his 11.5sec run. Dude managed 140mph according to his video on youtube.

 

Here it is..

 

 

 

I also read that it was a 67 rather than a 71mm but I didn't read that from Dude so I guess that could be false.

 

 

I know there are loads of things to consider with regards to the terminal etc that was my whole argument when the chart of RWHP vs terminals was brought out in a previous thread (I recall being shot down when I suggested that there was more to it than power though?), this is my point and my reasoning for why I don't believe the car would make 550rwhp over here. The strange thing is that when I say a car can do a higher terminal with the same power I get shot down.

 

That isn't to say it's not 550rwhp, for all intents and purposes it has made that figure so that is the power it has. My point is that if someone built the exact same car to the exact same spec and ran it on SRR it wouldn't make 550rwhp, IMO it would be closer to 550fwhp. The same goes for if the car was brought over here and put on SRR. If they took it to TDI and stuck it on the hub dyno I would guess it would probably make closer to the 550RHHP though.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Scott (see edit history)

[JamieP]

I must be missing it but i dont see where it says 140mph in the video, it cuts off just before the guy says the terminal time, Im going by the best times post on this board in the drag racing section.

 

Either way i dont see how it matters to any of this, im not going to argu about any of this with you as it just keeps going round in circles, same as previous threads on the subject, and tbh i dont really care, you want dyno numbers to be an exact science, its never going to be that way.

[Scott]

I must be missing it but i dont see where it says 140mph in the video, it cuts off just before the guy says the terminal time, Im going by the best times post on this board in the drag racing section.

 

Either way i dont see how it matters to any of this, im not going to argu about any of this with you as it just keeps going round in circles, same as previous threads on the subject, and tbh i dont really care, you want dyno numbers to be an exact science, its never going to be that way.

 

 

Sorry it doesn't say it in the video, it's on the description of the video which you need to view by clicking the youtube link.

 

I'm not fussed about it being an exact science really, although as I said I would like to see a straight power run on a dyno with no adjustments (but that's more of a curiosity than anything relating to anything). I am simply saying that the same car won't make the same HP figures over here at SRR which is what we generally use as our comparison of power (obviously only to a certain level). People get deluded by the US HP figures when relating to ours when IMO it's the measuring that's different rather than the tuning. Much the same as it is between different dynos over here.

 

 

Edit: Also just to add, I'm not being argumentative. I honestly have a very inquisitive nature and I'm trying to have a debate about it rather than argue points.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Scott (see edit history)

[Hellstrom]

I think this thread has started to get abit out of hand. Scott imo you can think what ever you want its all fine for me. i have never really cared about dyno numbers as for it its just as you say,pubtalk. If we get back to those turbos i really think they are able to push up to or about 550whp or so give take some. for me this would be ideal as i want to have the quick spool and also to have the car look pretty much stock in the enginebay. Iam by all meens no theorycrafter about turbos etc. but i know how to match the turbos to target hp vs spool etc. in my world you just dont know enough how a turbo charger works and how to really see the compressor map and do a readout.

 

if the compressor map is correct as posted in that sale add then they are capable of pumping 35ft/lb of air and that would be enough for 700ish give take some. However due to flow not beeing optimal in the stock pipes etc you will need to increase the pressure its not going to happend on stock pipeing (550whp @ 1.25bar) but i might be putting it out at close to 2bars. cant really tell before someone have actually tried.

 

Also about the US/EURO/J-spec when a US guy says he got about 400whp does that meed that he did achive this at 1.2bar (safe barrier for j-spec) you can push the EURO/UK more then the j-spec up to somthing like 1.4bars so if he is getting 400whp at 1.4bars vs a j-spec gets around 400enginehp @ 1.2 bar i really dont see this as impossible.

 

Like i said before, i love JamieP car its awsome and i really dont care about the numbers he is putting down. i just like to watch them movies when he gives it the beans on the street. iam not really into the streetracing anyway (well i meen at a track). about the dynos for me they are a tool when mapping the car, to see how much gain over a certain risk like advancing the timing, leaning it out on fuel etc.

[Scott]

I think this thread has started to get abit out of hand. Scott imo you can think what ever you want its all fine for me. i have never really cared about dyno numbers as for it its just as you say,pubtalk. If we get back to those turbos i really think they are able to push up to or about 550whp or so give take some. for me this would be ideal as i want to have the quick spool and also to have the car look pretty much stock in the enginebay. Iam by all meens no theorycrafter about turbos etc. but i know how to match the turbos to target hp vs spool etc. in my world you just dont know enough how a turbo charger works and how to really see the compressor map and do a readout.

 

I don't doubt that 2 GT28s would be good enough for that power, a fair bit more in fact, the issue with hybrids has never been the turbos themselves. It has always been the manifold and the surrounding setup that has held things back. The turbos end up cooking because the manifold holds so much heat. I'm hoping that Dude will pop in and fill us in with regards to the turbos that were used in the UK 500fwhp car.

 

With regards to the US vs UK, it really isn't an issue at all until you are used to one and you drive the other. For instance, and this is all theory based on a hypothetical situation and what I have seen over the years, lets just say that you have driven an SRR proven 550rwhp single turbo car and that you decide from there that you really want that power. You decide to save up and buy this very turbo kit from the US, along with all the supporting mods, and build your car to the exact same spec as this car. What happens when you drive that car and it doesn't feel as powerful as the SRR dynod car? A similar scenario would be the op buying this kit, building the car and taking it to SRR to compare to other Supras that have ran before it, how gutting would it be to find it got 450rwhp rather than 550rwhp?

 

These figures change from place to place, I would be absolutely GUTTED to spend all that cash for not a great deal of gain though. Well, it would be a good gain but just not as much as promised. I don't know anyone that would go with a T67 if 550rwhp could be had out of stock-ish twins.

[dude]

Even putting down near 560USRWHP is much more than we have even gotten close to, even when taking into account what I think that would equate to here (around 560UKFWHP IMO) so that's quite a setup for the stock manifold. I think AFR got to around the 500fwhp before the EGTs went through the roof so I would like to see what sort of temps they are seeing and it would be interesting to see how they are combatting the high EGT levels (fueling, WI etc). Dude will obviously be able to clarify that a bit better though. Although, there may be slight changes to the export spec manifold that makes that a possibility.

 

I think hybrids would be a good option on the Supra if we could actually trust them. Through the years I've noticed that it seems to be a bit of a mixed bag with regards to reliability. Noone has ever came out and said for definite that xxx brand or setup is good for many miles, just about every supplier has had someone with a negative experience to speak of. It's a bit of a shame really as 500+hp with the stock sequential setup would make for a cracking drive.

 

I believe we got to 520 FWHP with the hybrids and cams and a forged engine and F-con, the forged engine would have made no diff to power.

[Scott]

I believe we got to 520 FWHP with the hybrids and cams and a forged engine and F-con, the forged engine would have made no diff to power.

 

Am I right in saying it was the EGTs that were getting high and not the turbos being gassed that stopped you guys going any further John? I'm struggling to remember details but I remember following that build. What turbos was it the customer went with? Was it just bog standard hybrids that we generally see popping up on the forum, or was it something a bit different from the norm?

[dude]

Am I right in saying it was the EGTs that were getting high and not the turbos being gassed that stopped you guys going any further John? I'm struggling to remember details but I remember following that build. What turbos was it the customer went with? Was it just bog standard hybrids that we generally see popping up on the forum, or was it something a bit different from the norm?

 

The turbos were based on a J spec Scott, I told CR to do the most they could to them, I advised the customer not to go this route and the turbos were very problematic, he now has a single and is much happier with it, he admits it is the route he should have taken. The EGT's were very high and the car feels much quicker on the single even though the hp figures are similar.

 

My first 10 sec 1/4 was with a 67 P trim precision journal bearing turbo, I moved up to a 71 GTQ but prefered the 67, the trap speeds went up to 136 mph I think we had one of 138 and the best time I believe was 10.6, I doubt the power was ever near 750 hp (autos are a wonderful thing) but that was enough to hit 179 halfway down Bruntingthorpe. Remember the management was a Apexi AVCR and ITC !!!!

[dude]

Remember I also managed a 12.1 in a UK car, all it had was BPU and Hybrids with a Hi stall, its still the fastest UK spec 1/4 on the forum !!!

[Scott]

The turbos were based on a J spec Scott, I told CR to do the most they could to them, I advised the customer not to go this route and the turbos were very problematic, he now has a single and is much happier with it, he admits it is the route he should have taken. The EGT's were very high and the car feels much quicker on the single even though the hp figures are similar.

 

My first 10 sec 1/4 was with a 67 P trim precision journal bearing turbo, I moved up to a 71 GTQ but prefered the 67, the trap speeds went up to 136 mph I think we had one of 138 and the best time I believe was 10.6, I doubt the power was ever near 750 hp (autos are a wonderful thing) but that was enough to hit 179 halfway down Bruntingthorpe. Remember the management was a Apexi AVCR and ITC !!!!

 

What do you reckon the chances of 600hp from hybrids are, with the stock manifold, at 1.2bar?

[dude]

What do you reckon the chances of 600hp from hybrids are, with the stock manifold, at 1.2bar?

 

About the same as you fitting in a pair of Ryan G's jeans !!!!