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The mkiv Supra Owners Club

Water/Meth with NOS Dyno


Noz

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Afternoon all.

 

Was just doing some usually water/meth research and found this guy had done a dyno experiment using water/meth at different levels and then introduced NOS.

 

I found it interesting, thought others may also. Its on a diesel engine, but I still found it interesting not seena comparison dyno before.

 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5031667-My-No-Horse-hit-Water-Meth-Dyno-Experiment

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Its well known that WI on its own, or W/M mix up to about 80% does not increase power,and IMO using 100% meth only makes a minimal difference (needs large jets and mapping for to achieve any appreciable power hike)

 

The only time that guy actually gets any power difference, is when he uses nos, nothing new there.

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Yes WI and WI+meth when set up properly will allow you to push the boundaries a little, IE more timing advance and a little more boost etc, however you need to have some safeguard's in place, so as if water/meth runs out, suffers a blocked jet etc etc, timing will be retarded and boost cut etc, so you end up with a lot of electronic warning/fail safe devices, its not simple or cheap, which is why i stopped tuning for it and just used WI as a det suppressant and charge cooler.

 

I guess its worth the extra trouble and expense to squeeze an extra few BHP from say a out out race or drag car, but not really worth it on a road car.

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Running an NA-T I've got high compression and have been told WI would be a good idea for a safe guard. Not having knock sensors I think the WI would be a good idea just as a safe guard, so tuning in a few extra BHP will only require a shut off device like you say, and a low-level sensor.

 

The AEM kit I was looking at, has a low level sensor output light and output signal, and the AEM boost controller I'm also looking at has the function to connect the two, shutting off the boost controller if the low-level WI sensor is activated. The units I am looking at seem to be able to talk to each other and forfill this requirement, so hoping I can use them together for that little bit extra.

 

NA-T's seem to knock around just below 400, very few people push the limits of the NA's with stock compression and boost, so by doing this hopefully I can play it safe and get the most out my engine.

 

I don't want lower compression at this time, as it will require bigger injectors and my gearbox will fail with a huge jump in power anyway, so a few extra BHP is all I'm after, if I can safe guard at the same time then even better.

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I have purchased the AEM kit as well, its not installed but my mate back in SA is running the same kit in his BPU TT...He has no complaints with it..

 

Water meth injection is very popular in SA because of the 95 octane pump fuel.

 

I plan on trying my car out with Water only first, hopefully I can get away running 1.2bar boost with water only.. Not to keen on keep methanol at home..

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Well first off you require a flow sensor as well as a level sensor, as your more likely to suffer blocked jet/s low flow rate than running out of water, this ten needs to be integrated into a control module, IE a stand alone ECU or piggyback capable of being set to cut boost and or pull timing/add fuel this happen, not as easy as it sounds to set this up.

 

You have no knock sensor???? if you have any chance of succeeding with your plan, you will most definitely need some form of knock sensing, and preferably one that can also be integrated so that if knock is detected over a certain level it will also pull timing, or you have no chance of making the whole system work, unless you want to drive around with det cans on:blink:

 

I had all this but still decided it wasn't worth the extra trouble or the risk.;)

 

Oh! one further point too much water will actually kill power, so it important to calculate the correct jet size, pressure actuated systems are not all that, unless you can select the pressure point to stat ti inject at, ECU controlled systems like Aquamist are much more controllable and are designed to run fail-safes.

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The AEM system I was looking at came with different sizes jets, so I was hoping I would be able to select my application from this. With more research I was assuming there would be one of the two I could use. Without understanding the requirements Im not going to purchase anything just yet.

 

A knock sensor would be a good idea, I haven't looked into this and it's something I was going to look into after I've purchased everything else and before the dyno.

 

I've seen 52mm flow gauges, this would be a good idea then I assume.

 

I also wanted to get an air intake gauge. I wanted to compare results to make sure it was actually lowering temps and not doing sod all.

 

EDIT: I should be able to connect my EMU to a knock sensor, I just need to find out the correct frequency and buy a sensor accordingly. Can I locate this in the intake manifold.

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Which AEM model are you thinking of? as for the flow gauge, it needs a threshold trigged output to work?

An intake mounted temp gauge will not show any big difference's, because the main effect of WI is in cylinder charge cooling, i found that using two smaller jets works best, one in the recommended place IE just after the cold side of the IC, and the other just before the throttle body works best, as you get better atomization from the smaller jets, as for calculating sizes, if you go on the ERL Aquamist site there is a formula for doing this.

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Thanks for your advice mate. You've been a great help along my NA-T journey :)

 

Was looking at the AEM 30 3000 kit, URL: http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=205

 

The flow gauge was AEM and doesn't seem to have an output for trigger to reduce boost levels if flow is incorrect. I have seen an AEM meter gauge which does set levels for flow, you run it and use the software to adjust the high or low points. I can't remember what its called at the moment.

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Before making your decision, have a look here, http://www.aquamist.co.uk/cp/cp1.html

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/

as the Aquamist basic system comes in around the same price as the AEM, and IMO is far superior, the next one up is about £100 more but includes the flow gauge and all the integrated sensors you need, and can interface with even a std ECU, they have come on in leaps and bounds since i used their stuff, and a lot of the things i had to do to get the system to work as i wanted with all the fail-safes, are now built in.

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I think the aquamist system looks great. The controller looks good quality, and everything looks like it has a function, and hasn't had any corners cut with making it.

 

I think the AEM kit would work fine, but considering its a system that will stop my engine failing, it may be worth me getting the most costly product.

 

I've looked at some comparisons and AEM seems to supply most of what aquamist includes in their basic kit. AEM will be cheaper, without a gauge, which would make it more expensive. In the long run, it may be more cost effective to buy the aquamist set up.

 

Out of interest, why do you not like some AEM products? I was quite keen on buying their tru-boost controller.

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Looks and seems to function OK similar to Aquamist, i just prefer the later because i don't like some of the stuff that AEM produce.

 

i would have to agree with ricky there mate AEM are rubish most of there stuff sounds great and should work in pricable but in real application seems to fall short. please look at the aem forum its a lonely place with lot of upset customers on the fic section i have not looked at other sections but always good to see other peoples thoughts.http://forum.aempower.com/forum/index.php

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Well my reasons are to do with the problems a mate had with his stand alone ECU, and backed up with quite a lot lot of similar incident's from others with the same unit, and i also don't like there AFR wide-band gauges, as they have limited range and you cannot configure the narrow-band simulated output and have it run stable, quite a few people have reported this, otherwise i have had little to do with them, but as they are two products that they are prominent in, so lets just say I'm put off.

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i would have to agree with ricky there mate AEM are rubish most of there stuff sounds great and should work in pricable but in real application seems to fall short. please look at the aem forum its a lonely place with lot of upset customers on the fic section i have not looked at other sections but always good to see other peoples thoughts.http://forum.aempower.com/forum/index.php

 

Yes that reminds me, i was thinking of buying the FIC8 for my Skyline, but after a little research i found that the functions where in practice not as good as say the Greddy EMU, and the number of complaint's also bothered me.

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Sorry for the slight hijack..

 

My intention is to run my BPU car at 1.2bar boost with the Water meth injection. As I mentioned the fuel in SA is 95 octane. Car will have the Mines ECU fitted.

 

I was going to run the car on the dyno, starting with water only, from stock boost till I can achieve a safe WOT AFR (say 11.3).

 

Then I would try water/meth (AEM say max 50/50) in the hope I could get the car to 1.2bar with a safe AFR.

 

Does this make sense?

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Sorry for the slight hijack..

 

My intention is to run my BPU car at 1.2bar boost with the Water meth injection. As I mentioned the fuel in SA is 95 octane. Car will have the Mines ECU fitted.

 

I was going to run the car on the dyno, starting with water only, from stock boost till I can achieve a safe WOT AFR (say 11.3).

 

Then I would try water/meth (AEM say max 50/50) in the hope I could get the car to 1.2bar with a safe AFR.

 

Does this make sense?

 

Your AFRs are going to be whatever the ECU is mapped to, you will have no control, with the local fuel being 95 ron? then i suspect your going to need at least a piggyback ECU to get your fuel trims to what you want, same goes for timing.

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Your AFRs are going to be whatever the ECU is mapped to, you will have no control, with the local fuel being 95 ron? then i suspect your going to need at least a piggyback ECU to get your fuel trims to what you want, same goes for timing.

 

I am a bit confused..

 

The OEM ECU is mapped for Jap fuel and I will be running 95 octane plus water meth.

 

If I can match the octane the car should run the same..

 

So if I run plain 95 with the same boost levels, the AFR's will be the same?

 

The effect will be detonation, which does not affect the AFR, correct?

 

So whats the point in monitoring AFR's?

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I am a bit confused..

 

The OEM ECU is mapped for Jap fuel and I will be running 95 octane plus water meth.

 

If I can match the octane the car should run the same..

 

So if I run plain 95 with the same boost levels, the AFR's will be the same?

 

The effect will be detonation, which does not affect the AFR, correct?

 

So whats the point in monitoring AFR's?

 

So STD ECU mapped for Jap fuel so could be anything from 99 to 101,

so you want to run 95, and you hope to compensate for the RON deficiency buy running water/meth injection yes?

 

Right first question, do you know for sure what boost the Mines ECU is mapped to?

 

Second question, if you do not monitor AFRs, how in hell are you going to know if your injecting enough meth to compensate for the lower RON fuel?

 

And finally IMO you don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of doing it by the means you describe, you will need a reliable wide-band lambda setup, and i certainly wouldn't do this without at least a piggyback ECU, as you have no other RELIABLE way of correcting the fueling or timing, adding water/meth injection and hoping that it will work is not the way to go.

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