Suarez Guiilty but not a racist?

[The Raven]

8 games and 40k.

 

I dont want to say to much until they show all the bits and bobs to do with the case. I know lots of liverpool supporters are jumping to luis defence but im not one of them just yet. From what i gather its a case of one mans word against another? No other man utd player, ref or official heard anything.

 

If they come down this hard on him what on earth will happen to John Terry?

 

Eva has stated Luis is not a racist? well if he is to be taken at value then he is?

[jim]

Same boat as you Raven, I'm a Liverpool fan and I was surprised at how they went about making the decision (ie solely based on evra's word) but I do think that if he made a racist remark then he deserves everything he gets.

[Westy]

£40k fine...I'm sure he isn't crying himself to sleep over that.

 

Bad for the club to lose a player for that length of time though.

[JakeG]

Terry will get away with it as he always does, ballotelli has had some input, "if suarez can get an 8 match ban for what one man said, the whole man utd team should be banned for racially abusing me"

[The Raven]

One bright note to come out of this.

 

Chekc out who is winning the player of year on sky sports. Luis at 70% with RVP next at 8%. Im going to laugh my ass off to see how sky get out of that one

[johnny g]

John Terry is under-going a criminal investigation if I recall, as all of his file details have been passed to the CPS. So, the FA can only conduct their investigation and impose their penalty once the CPS have completed their investigations, at least that's how it's been explained to me.

 

As for Suarez, I feel that karma might be doing it's rounds here. As you all know, I'm an Everton fan, and I abhor Suarez. I feel a player who cheats and dives as much as he does has no place in the Premier League - it detracts from the undoubted talent he has. However, the FA did not find him guilty, it was an Independant Commission hired by the FA to conduct the investigation - who then made their recommendations. Knowing the legal power of the Premier League clubs, the FA would not have made this decision unless there was valid and demonstrable proof.

 

On my Facebook last night, it was sickening to see the amount of racist abuse directed towards Evra from LFC fans - it's irony of levels that you just cannot comprehend.

[The Raven]

I have to agree with JG, as much as it pains me.

 

Ive seen lots of crap from liverpool supporters, from not attending the FA cup, to and this is the best one, Teaching the cockney FA whos boss and pulling out of the league altogether.

 

As for him being a cheat he is no worse than Ronaldo was, and he was one of the best players ever to grace an english ground. Luis has been here less than a year, he will learn that falling over works the other way and see him not getting anything even when is being kicked around the park. I dont mind the match ban, and im sure the fine wont bother him. Being stuck with the "Racist" label is the one that gets me.

 

Dont get me wrong if he had have come out with something that disgusting then he gets whats coming to him, dare i say it but liverpool would have to look at how it makes the club look. However he does not seem to think he has done anything wrong, Eva told him "dont touch me you south american" Is that not rascism?

 

I do wonder what the reaction would have been if this had been one of our fringe or unliked players? Joe Cole maybe?

[Chris Wilson]

If I was being paid over £100K a week or whatever these prima donnas get, you could call me anything you wanted

[Dnk]

If I was being paid over £100K a week or whatever these prima donnas get, you could call me anything you wanted

 

[MVP]

It was recorded - you can watch him say it at least five times! 8 matches isnt enough for me. Scum like him deserve a season ban. Terry is even worse, but like Steve G, he will always get away with whatever he wants!!

[Kopite]

I'm not gonna pay too much attention to this thread as it will probably end up being a Liverpool V Everton/Man United thing. I'll add first of all that i'm a dark/brown/whatever person and have been racially attacked in the past. Suarez admitted using the word Negrito which, from all i've read about in Spanish speaking cultures especially South America, means "black" and is an accepted (and some say friendly) term for a person of colour. This is what his defence was, that it was not meant in a racially provocative way. Apparently Evra had said to Suarez first "You're South American" and Suarez's reply was "You're black". obviously all in Spanish. So you had a Frenchman talking in and interpretating Spanish and drawing his own conclusions. Again, from what i've heard, this is what Suarez was on about his Man United team-mates calling him.

As Liverpool have stated, is Evra's statement possibly racist also? Points have also been made about how Suarez himself has a coloured granddad, doesn't mean it's impossible that he's racist but makes it more unlikely. Don't forget one of Suarez's team-mates, Maxi Pereira, is "affectionately" nicknamed "El Mono" - "The Monkey". That part of the world seem to be more relaxed with the political correctness side of things but that doesn't make it racist. Hell, people are now saying Liverpool are racist as they used the term "black" themselves. In that case, should i be offended when someone calls me a "brown person"? What do you call me then? Part of the issue with Luis is that he'd only been in the country 10 months by that time, he still can't speak English either.

Also, this is now the third time that Evra has cried racism, as far as i'm aware, there were no witnesses in the other 2 cases either. Liverpool also stated that The FA have been very quick to praise themselves "in light of Sepp Blatter's remarks" so it seemed they wanted to give FIFA another dig to show how they should handle racism.

You may say that i'll be biased because i'm a red but i'm also a non-white.

 

To add, John Terry's case will be slightly different as they're both native English and that's their first language. He's appearing before a magistrate on 1st Feb and rumour has it is looking at a 14 game ban

[merckx]

John Terry is under-going a criminal investigation if I recall, as all of his file details have been passed to the CPS.

 

Today the CPS have decided that there is sufficient evidence to charge him, he'll be appearing in court on 1st Febuary.

 

They showed a video of the incident and a black Chelsea teammate is in between the two of them and must've heard everything, what a nice person

[johnny g]

I'm not gonna pay too much attention to this thread as it will probably end up being a Liverpool V Everton/Man United thing. I'll add first of all that i'm a dark/brown/whatever person and have been racially attacked in the past. Suarez admitted using the word Negrito which, from all i've read about in Spanish speaking cultures especially South America, means "black" and is an accepted (and some say friendly) term for a person of colour. This is what his defence was, that it was not meant in a racially provocative way. Apparently Evra had said to Suarez first "You're South American" and Suarez's reply was "You're black". obviously all in Spanish. So you had a Frenchman talking in and interpretating Spanish and drawing his own conclusions. Again, from what i've heard, this is what Suarez was on about his Man United team-mates calling him.

I don't want this to turn into a Liverpool slagging match, but I want racism out of football, first and foremost.

However, the FA had an independent panel asses this, they have to have proof. However, if you say that there's a loss of translation, etc, then you could say Evra has possibly cheated Suarez, then. Ironic really, as that's what Suarez has done to referees all of his career.

 

As Liverpool have stated, is Evra's statement possibly racist also? Points have also been made about how Suarez himself has a coloured granddad, doesn't mean it's impossible that he's racist but makes it more unlikely.

Agreed, however, Hitler's grandfather was Jewish, so there's a precedent.

 

Don't forget one of Suarez's team-mates, Maxi Pereira, is "affectionately" nicknamed "El Mono" - "The Monkey". That part of the world seem to be more relaxed with the political correctness side of things but that doesn't make it racist. Hell, people are now saying Liverpool are racist as they used the term "black" themselves.

Again, I agree they're more relaxed. However, when in Rome...

 

In that case, should i be offended when someone calls me a "brown person"? What do you call me then? Part of the issue with Luis is that he'd only been in the country 10 months by that time, he still can't speak English either.

I'd call you something respectful - (which is more than I do for Hodge ) - also, not speaking English is no excuse. As they've said on talkSPORT, Suarez should have been educated by Liverpool on his arrival.

[The Raven]

Well lets just chuck in john terry!

 

Charged!

[johnny g]

Well lets just chuck in john terry!

 

Charged!

 

Indeed. Very happy to hear that!

However, the 1st Feb hearing date further means that FA can still do nothing - and nobody can broadcast anything about it. I hope it doesn't fade into the background.

[MaveriK]

Firstly, yes i am a united supporter but try not to hold that against me.

 

Did Suarez understand exactly what he was saying in context to being in the UK?

 

No, i dont think he did but that doesnt make it right either. So an 8 match ban to highlight that clubs have to educate their foreign players and take responsibilty for their actions seems about right. The 40k is a slap on the hand to the player, nothing more and nothing less, not going to break their banks is it.

 

I dont understand Liverpools stance with so aggressively backing the player. "We wont let him walk alone" almost made me cringe, thankfully i was able to vomit which eased the situation. I would have thought this misunderstanding was best swept under the carpet and forgotten about and not something to hang your colours on?

 

As for John Terry, sorry JT, i hope they throw the book at the vile individual. This is not the first time he has sullied the arm band for England but it has to be the last.

[MVP]

I don't want this to turn into a Liverpool slagging match, but I want racism out of football, first and foremost.

However, the FA had an independent panel asses this, they have to have proof. However, if you say that there's a loss of translation, etc, then you could say Evra has possibly cheated Suarez, then. Ironic really, as that's what Suarez has done to referees all of his career.

 

 

Agreed, however, Hitler's grandfather was Jewish, so there's a precedent.

 

 

Again, I agree they're more relaxed. However, when in Rome...

 

 

I'd call you something respectful - (which is more than I do for Hodge ) - also, not speaking English is no excuse. As they've said on talkSPORT, Suarez should have been educated by Liverpool on his arrival.

 

Bang on!

 

Whether he understood the implications of what he said or not, he is guilty of something pretty awful. Not only that, but he is not a nice character, you can see that by the way he plays (and by the handball during the World Cup!). The bit that had got me the most is the way Liverpool have reacted. I am all for loyalty and for standing up for something, but there comes a point when you need to disassociate yourself from the activity (or just remain silent). The never walk alone comment made me sick in my mouth. Kenny is a brilliant manager, but that was such a stupid comment (or tweet).

 

As for JT, that man is scum. Sleeps with mates girlfriends/partners, goes around like he is popcorn Jack and rules the country. Scum. I wish they could lock him up as an example. He's a dirty player, with a disgusting life and a complete lack of scruples. How these people defend themselves when they so clearly committed the crime is beyond me. Complete lack of remorse, but most idiots buy it, especially the Chelsea plastics!

[johnny g]

Without LFC bashing, I'd have to totally agree.

If they'd taken this stance AFTER the ruling, then maybe you can understand backing your player in this instance. But, they've taken this approach, effectively, since the final whistle blew.

 

The whole thing shows a lack of respect and humilty.

[Kopite]

Firstly, yes i am a united supporter but try not to hold that against me.

 

Did Suarez understand exactly what he was saying in context to being in the UK?

 

No, i dont think he did but that doesnt make it right either. So an 8 match ban to highlight that clubs have to educate their foreign players and take responsibilty for their actions seems about right. The 40k is a slap on the hand to the player, nothing more and nothing less, not going to break their banks is it.

 

I dont understand Liverpools stance with so aggressively backing the player. "We wont let him walk alone" almost made me cringe, thankfully i was able to vomit which eased the situation. I would have thought this misunderstanding was best swept under the carpet and forgotten about and not something to hang your colours on?

 

As for John Terry, sorry JT, i hope they throw the book at the vile individual. This is not the first time he has sullied the arm band for England but it has to be the last.

 

But then how long do you give this "education"? 1 week? A month? Should the FA be banning Javier Hernandez too? He also openly used the negrito word and no one battered an eyelid. His quote was "Me gustó mucho el gol del Negrito". I don't think it's hard to understand Liverpool's stance - they obviously believe Suarez didn't mean what was said in an offensive way and the FA's ruling is going to lead to him being branded a racist for life.

 

Bang on!

 

Whether he understood the implications of what he said or not, he is guilty of something pretty awful. Not only that, but he is not a nice character, you can see that by the way he plays (and by the handball during the World Cup!). The bit that had got me the most is the way Liverpool have reacted. I am all for loyalty and for standing up for something, but there comes a point when you need to disassociate yourself from the activity (or just remain silent). The never walk alone comment made me sick in my mouth. Kenny is a brilliant manager, but that was such a stupid comment (or tweet).

 

The handball thing has also come up a few times, question though. It's the world cup final and an England player does something similar and England go on to win the World Cup. How many England fans would then treat that player with disgust to how many would say hes a hero. Similar incident to Phil Jones playing for England against Montegro i think, he got a touch and went down very very softly which led to the commentator saying "he's learning very quickly". Double standards? If that was Suarez or Ronaldo, he'd be torn apart.

 

Without LFC bashing, I'd have to totally agree.

If they'd taken this stance AFTER the ruling, then maybe you can understand backing your player in this instance. But, they've taken this approach, effectively, since the final whistle blew.

 

The whole thing shows a lack of respect and humilty.

 

How does this show lack of respect? They were told by the FA after the charges were made to be quiet so they couldn't do much at all.

 

To all of you above, will you now also join the chorus wanting Alan Hansen sacked for referring to black people as "coloured"? 5 years ago, that was probably the PC word of choice but now it's racist too?

[johnny g]

But then how long do you give this "education"? 1 week? A month? Should the FA be banning Javier Hernandez too? He also openly used the negrito word and no one battered an eyelid. His quote was "Me gustó mucho el gol del Negrito". I don't think it's hard to understand Liverpool's stance - they obviously believe Suarez didn't mean what was said in an offensive way and the FA's ruling is going to lead to him being branded a racist for life.

Well, he's been here what, 10 months now? Lived in Europe for 5 years or so? I think that's plenty time enough, personally. Maybe he is actually an abhorrent person. As for Hernandez, that's a separate case and should be looked at. I do think the FA are taking a hard line, or it would always be the next incident to get evaluated. They're damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

 

How does this show lack of respect? They were told by the FA after the charges were made to be quiet so they couldn't do much at all.

 

To all of you above, will you now also join the chorus wanting Alan Hansen sacked for referring to black people as "coloured"? 5 years ago, that was probably the PC word of choice but now it's racist too?

 

Liverpool have stopped short of branding him a liar, but only just. They have gone public that he is "not credible" - so in other words, a liar. If this were politics, it would be described as a smear campaign. Perhaps, if this were not United versus Liverpool and two big name players for both sides, Evra might even be congratulated for having the courage to stand up to what Paul Goulding QC and his colleagues have now identified as racism. That is, after all, what the authorities want. Yet Evra has not been portrayed as the victim in the real sense of the word, and Liverpool have argued that he is, indeed, the villain, unreliable and malicious when it comes to the truth. It will hardly encourage others to come forward the next time someone is called a "negro" on a football pitch.

 

Obviously, if all Liverpool fans think they know more than a panel of QC's and can make informed decisions and arrive at different conclusions than a panel of impartial QC's, then please do.

 

As for Hansen, that's a whole new storm - which will hopefully pass without incident.

[Kopite]

Well, he's been here what, 10 months now? Lived in Europe for 5 years or so? I think that's plenty time enough, personally. Maybe he is actually an abhorrent person. As for Hernandez, that's a separate case and should be looked at. I do think the FA are taking a hard line, or it would always be the next incident to get evaluated. They're damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

 

 

 

Liverpool have stopped short of branding him a liar, but only just. They have gone public that he is "not credible" - so in other words, a liar. If this were politics, it would be described as a smear campaign. Perhaps, if this were not United versus Liverpool and two big name players for both sides, Evra might even be congratulated for having the courage to stand up to what Paul Goulding QC and his colleagues have now identified as racism. That is, after all, what the authorities want. Yet Evra has not been portrayed as the victim in the real sense of the word, and Liverpool have argued that he is, indeed, the villain, unreliable and malicious when it comes to the truth. It will hardly encourage others to come forward the next time someone is called a "negro" on a football pitch.

 

Obviously, if all Liverpool fans think they know more than a panel of QC's and can make informed decisions and arrive at different conclusions than a panel of impartial QC's, then please do.

 

As for Hansen, that's a whole new storm - which will hopefully pass without incident.

 

I think that's exactly what Liverpool think though, that Evra is a liar. He didn't report it to the referee during the game, he reported it to the French TV and then the referee after the game. Who might have been in his ear between the final whistle and the time he reported it? His previous claims against the Chelsea groundsman and Finnan (another Liverpool player) were both thrown out, the latter showing it's not the first time he's claimed something against Liverpool while being at Man United. In other walks of life, people are very quick to complain about the race card being used. It seems Liverpool are simply believing that this is one of those cases and it will have a devastating blow on their season. I could easily claim that you, Johnny G used a racist term against me and you would have a tough time to PROVE that you didn't. How can you PROVE that you didn't do something? I once had a similar experience where a mate found coke in her boyfriend's pocket, when questioned he said he'd got it from me. What defence would i have? "Oh that isn't mine?". Any prosecutor would then say that's the exact defence a guilty person would have too.

[johnny g]

I think that's exactly what Liverpool think though, that Evra is a liar. He didn't report it to the referee during the game, he reported it to the French TV and then the referee after the game. Who might have been in his ear between the final whistle and the time he reported it? His previous claims against the Chelsea groundsman and Finnan (another Liverpool player) were both thrown out, the latter showing it's not the first time he's claimed something against Liverpool while being at Man United. In other walks of life, people are very quick to complain about the race card being used. It seems Liverpool are simply believing that this is one of those cases and it will have a devastating blow on their season. I could easily claim that you, Johnny G used a racist term against me and you would have a tough time to PROVE that you didn't. How can you PROVE that you didn't do something? I once had a similar experience where a mate found coke in her boyfriend's pocket, when questioned he said he'd got it from me. What defence would i have? "Oh that isn't mine?". Any prosecutor would then say that's the exact defence a guilty person would have too.

 

Evra never cited racism in the Chelsea case, contrary to what you may have read elsewhere. Liverpool's extraordinary statement referred to Evra having no credibility and used as an example his "prior unfounded accusations". Except it was Mike Phelan, United's assistant manager, and Richard Hartis, the goalkeeping coach, who purported to hear the word "immigrant" used at Stamford Bridge. The story that it was Evra has gathered so much momentum now that even the usually reliable Press Association presented it as fact. Liverpool, they said, were referring to "racism allegations Evra made against Chelsea groundsman Sam Bethell, which were not proven".The truth is something completely different. Likewise, Evra kept his distance when two deaf United fans complained they had lip‑read Steve Finnan making a racist remark to him during a Liverpool-United game in 2006. The simple truth is that Evra has complained of being racially abused only once before, and that was the 1-1 draw at Anfield on 15 October.

 

But, if you accused me of a racist term, personally, I'd not lose any sleep, because there's no proof. The QC's however, have proof. That proof is the admission by Luis Suarez himself.

[Kopite]

 

But, if you accused me of a racist term, personally, I'd not lose any sleep, because there's no proof. The QC's however, have proof. That proof is the admission by Luis Suarez himself.

 

That's not any proof at all though. It's purely Evra's interpretation of what Suarez was trying to say. You could use the word black or coloured in a sentence in a foreign language and i could interpret it differently. Or an American could come over and accuse everyone for homophobia when they said they "wanted to light up a fag". In this case, the FA are having to define what racism actually is. Suarez admitted using the "negrito" word but to him and his culture, that's not offensive and Liverpool believe that he did not mean it like that. No one's charged Evra with a slur about Suarez being "south american". Why not?

[johnny g]

That's not any proof at all though. It's purely Evra's interpretation of what Suarez was trying to say. You could use the word black or coloured in a sentence in a foreign language and i could interpret it differently. Or an American could come over and accuse everyone for homophobia when they said they "wanted to light up a fag". In this case, the FA are having to define what racism actually is. Suarez admitted using the "negrito" word but to him and his culture, that's not offensive and Liverpool believe that he did not mean it like that. No one's charged Evra with a slur about Suarez being "south american". Why not?

 

It's all around context, leading to interpretation. If I say Black. Where's the context? Sadly, it sounds like some Liverpool fans are choosing to hear what they want to hear.

Irrelevant of what we all think, QC Lawyers, who've forgotten more about Sporting Legal Procedings than we will ever know, believe there is sufficient proof, by definition and admission, to charge Suarez with use of racist comments - something that people of this intelligence would not do without that all important proof.

 

It might well be a South American culture. But, there's a key thing here. We're not in South America. Calling someone "South American" does not reflect on his skin colour as much as "Negro/Negrito", to the point I feel it's a token reposte from Liverpool.

[Kopite]

It's all around context, leading to interpretation. If I say Black. Where's the context? Sadly, it sounds like some Liverpool fans are choosing to hear what they want to hear.

Irrelevant of what we all think, QC Lawyers, who've forgotten more about Sporting Legal Procedings than we will ever know, believe there is sufficient proof, by definition and admission, to charge Suarez with use of racist comments - something that people of this intelligence would not do without that all important proof.

 

It might well be a South American culture. But, there's a key thing here. We're not in South America. Calling someone "South American" does not reflect on his skin colour as much as "Negro/Negrito", to the point I feel it's a token reposte from Liverpool.

 

It's not about choosing what you want to hear, if there was a soundbite or video of Suarez saying something meant in a racist way, i'm sure the views would be different. Or if it didn't happen to be a Manchester United player accusing a Liverpool player or vice versa. In reference to if you were being quoted wrongly, if you were speaking in a foreign language and made a reference to the colour of my shirt and i though you said skin, i could easily argue a context there and you'd have to prove i've quoted you wrongly.

I agree with you about the knowledge of the QC's but i don't believe that the FA have not gotten involved in this. If they'd found him not guilty, a whole load of people would then be on about how the FA don't treat racism seriously etc etc. The FA were always going to have a problem with a ruling. Personally I believe they just wanted to find him guilty as it would be the easiest solution for them. Calling someone "south american" is not automatically a racial slur, neither is saying "negrito". But if it's putting a spin on it (as they think Suarez did) then it can become prejudicial. By not acting on Evra's comments about where Suarez is from, the FA are therefore defining that isn't racist but skin colour is. Last time i checked, there isn't an accepted definition of racism but racial discrimination. That includes references colour and origin.