Syed Shah Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Originally posted by Chris Wilson The stock MKIV TT pistons are cast and boat anchorish heavy. That is certainly very interesting. According to Larry at SP, they are forged, and he says nothing on the aftermarket is any better. Perhaps a difference with the US cars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 They are definately castings. AFAIK all markets use the same pistons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Originally posted by Syed Shah That is certainly very interesting. According to Larry at SP, they are forged, and he says nothing on the aftermarket is any better. Perhaps a difference with the US cars? Its an OEM part...its built to a cost to a set of tolerances, you can always get better, Mahle, Accralite, Cosworth all make parts to a higher quality and a higher cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ad500 Posted February 4, 2003 Author Share Posted February 4, 2003 I was just costing up the turbo upgrade and unless some of this is in the kit am i right in thinking T04 turbo £4350 rail and inj kit £995 regultor £115 rail fitting kit £325 injectors £990 couldn't find a price for the VPC ROM chip and havnt included fuel pump Then some fitting labour on top of the £6800 (???) That is some chunk of money. Would i get anything for x changing a year and half old set of hybrids. Going single can't surely cost £6800+labour, i can't help feeling that i might be being a little niave here. Are second hand turbo's to be trusted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam W Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 You may want to consider some of the american turbo kits? I'm thinking of one of the new SP61's for mine, the turbo alone is $1100, I think the full manifold, BOV, everything install kit is about $3000 for the MkIV. And paying £1k for a set of injectors is crazy money, I think the blitz ones come in at half that. Check out the fuel upgrade kits that Powehouse Racing sell, you get everything included from pump to rail at a much nicer price. In short, shop around! Edited to add: Sound Performance make the SP61 and have an excellent reputation for quality and completeness in their kits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 Originally posted by ad500 I was just costing up the turbo upgrade and unless some of this is in the kit am i right in thinking T04 turbo £4350 rail and inj kit £995 regultor £115 rail fitting kit £325 injectors £990 couldn't find a price for the VPC ROM chip and havnt included fuel pump Then some fitting labour on top of the £6800 (???) That is some chunk of money. Would i get anything for x changing a year and half old set of hybrids. Going single can't surely cost £6800+labour, i can't help feeling that i might be being a little niave here. Are second hand turbo's to be trusted? I woukld say to do the job PROPERLY you need to be looking at 12K plus. You need to be looking at aftermarket ECU, no point radically changing the engine and then just tinkering with the mapping, the whole set up will need redoing from scratch. ask Terry or Leon, it's a major job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 I agree with Chris on the cost front. Replacing the VPC Rom was just a suggestion to get you going (after all it worked for a long time on mine and CD's car) and WILL give you the power but it really needs an ECU to do it properly as Chris says. We would fit and map an F-Con if it was here. Do not underestimate the cost of going big single/twin. Big boys power, big boys numbers and big boys cost. I could give you several examples of big twin conversions, drive in/drive out costing 20K, singles 15K. Still EXTREMELY cheap power if you ask me. Name me one other car that gets you even close for twice that price..... (and don't mention early Diablos for 50K cos they'll cost you dearly to even do shopping mileage in.... Regards, Nathan TDI PLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam W Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 What I don't understand is this . .. The yanks seem to be able to spend $4k on a turbo/manifold/wastegate kit, $2k on a fuel system, and $4k on clutch, management, IC, and misc. bits. Then the car runs 11's all day long, does thousands of street miles, with very few problems. Some of em blow up, no doubt, but most of em are OK. Not saying Chris or Nathan are wrong, but what is it that we do different in the UK that costs SO much more than the big single guys in the US spend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 Originally posted by Adam Wootten What I don't understand is this . .. The yanks seem to be able to spend $4k on a turbo/manifold/wastegate kit, $2k on a fuel system, and $4k on clutch, management, IC, and misc. bits. Then the car runs 11's all day long, does thousands of street miles, with very few problems. Some of em blow up, no doubt, but most of em are OK. Not saying Chris or Nathan are wrong, but what is it that we do different in the UK that costs SO much more than the big single guys in the US spend? I'm not sure to be honest! I think it's partly down to several factors. One is the cost of the parts- taking one example alone, the turbo kit for instance- £5,100 inc VAT. You quote $4K. So thats twice the price on the turbo kit alone. Again, you quote $2K on fuel system. An F-Con on it's own will cost that, let alone the rest of it. There might also be an element of decent cheaper labour. I've absolutely no idea what you need to pay for good spannermen in the States, but I'd wager that it's less than over here. Heres an idea for example, of parts cost: Most are based on HKS parts, bought from a UK supplier. Bear in mind that this list is an absolute MINIMUM required. As you can see it's not very long.. Super Drager £545 Front pipe £145 T04R £4350 FMIC £1385 EVC-5 £445 Fuel rail, reg & injectors £1220 Spark plugs & ignition amp £540 Cams & pullies £780 F-Con fitted & mapped (approx) £1200 Multiplate clutch £1250 Add the VAT and you've got 14K's worth of parts. That excludes labour, and any other items that most people go for ie gauges, dump valves, suspension, brakes etc. Neither does it go anywhere near the bottom end. I'm not going to go into whether anyone feels the parts are priced inappropiately. It's just giving an example of how it mounts up. Like I said, it's very easy to hit 20K.... Cheers, Nathan TDI PLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 Right Mark, that's $10k + Labour ( cheap turbo kit BTW). Can you map an AEM? They don't feel the need to change internals, we do. How many have you heard of with FMS failure.Etc etc. Each to their own. Doing it properly costs BIG. I know guys in the US that have spent FAR more than the costs Chris & Nathan are talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam W Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 I accept what you all say; I guess my point is that one can come up with a workable, useable 5-600bhp engine for far less money than the cost of doing it "properly". For sure, if you spend the extra money you will get a better end result, but I reckon even a "budget" effort would be pretty wild Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 Originally posted by Adam Wootten but I reckon even a "budget" effort would be pretty wild I agree, for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 Originally posted by Adam Wootten For sure, if you spend the extra money you will get a better end result, but I reckon even a "budget" effort would be pretty wild OK........... So lets skimp and do it this way: Drop the EVC and use a bleed valve (we're really scraping the barrel here). Saves £425 Run an AIC instead of 1000cc setup. Saves about £50 Drop the ignition amp. Saves £450 Drop the cams & pullies (assuming you have a UK/US spec). Saves £780 Drop the F-Con and use a pre-mapped VPC. Saves £450 Drop the multiplate and use a heavy duty single like an RPS or CentreForce. Saves £670. That works out at about £3320 with VAT. A fair chunk but you're still looking at £10,700 excluding labour. Granted, it will be a laugh but you'll never shake off the fact that you really have cut serious corners. You'll be worrying about the clutch letting go on the 1/4 mile and the boost going wobbly from day to day. Just what you want on your maxed out fuel system. Sure, you can expand on what you have rather than going for it all at once; most people do, but we're talking an overall budget so that doesn't really count. The problem is that the high value/high labour items are the ones you can't get away without buying. Just my 2p. Cheers, Nathan TDI PLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 Originally posted by Adam Wootten I accept what you all say; I guess my point is that one can come up with a workable, useable 5-600bhp engine for far less money than the cost of doing it "properly". For sure, if you spend the extra money you will get a better end result, but I reckon even a "budget" effort would be pretty wild A: (IMO) Most of the Yanks claims are bull B: When they do there 11 second "engine tests" they run race octane fuel, this hides the lack of mapping to a certain extent, in other words the engine won't melt down during the course of a handful of runs up the dragstrip through too much det. C: Put any of these cars on a track day and I would almost guarantee it will meltdown. The thermal loads and the stress that are accomodated over 11 seconds won't be dissipated over several laps. D: Their road miles are conducted at a sedate pace, their idea of a thrash is another drag race, albeit from the traffic lights this time. E: (IMO) Most of the Yanks claims are bull Bear in mind a decent 2 litre N/A race engine, say a 310 BHP one, will cost 18 to 20K UK pounds, without the management. A genuine 700 BHP Skyline engine and engine ancillaries will cost upwards of 30K UK. When you double or even near triple the power output of a production engine you either spend the dough to make it have half a chance of living, or you have a grenade with a loose pin (IMO) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ad500 Posted February 4, 2003 Author Share Posted February 4, 2003 Originally posted by Nathan OK........... Sure, you can expand on what you have rather than going for it all at once; most people do. Nathan TDI PLC Ok, so if I decide to go the long drawn out route and buy certain bits at a time to ease the pain. Whats the best route, priority being to add power but maintain drivability. i definatley do not want to worry about things going wrong all the time and as the cars been done properly so far i don't see the point in messing it up. Should i go: Fuel pump followed later by: Injectors and rail then: EVC (can't i use my existing one) finally: turbo. This order is probably completely wrong. But by doing it bit by bit would i see any noticable benefits or not till the end when the turbo gets put on. I hate being dumb about this stuff. Oh yeah and my N/S/R wheel bearing has just gone. Am I ever going to get to spend money on modifications rather than repairs, servicing and tyres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suprash Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 GULP - There's alot of £££££'s flying about round here, I never knew this stuff was so expensive. Still I dont know anything about this sort of thing, and one day, so in the meantinme, top thread, very interesting reading, and I usually get bored with the very indeth technical stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 Originally posted by ad500 Should i go: Fuel pump followed later by: Injectors and rail then: EVC (can't i use my existing one) finally: turbo. This order is probably completely wrong. But by doing it bit by bit would i see any noticable benefits or not till the end when the turbo gets put on. An EVC is worth having on a turbo car at any spec so thats pretty much essential IMO. The problem with the rest of it is that you don't really need it UNTIL the big turbo goes on. You can get a fairly good gain (and peace of mind) from fitting bigger injectors with a hybrid setup but if you're looking to go big single or twin then you won't be thinking about hybrids anyway. Likewise the clutch. A multiplate will be WAY over the top for a car on stock turbos. Unfortunately, you need to look at a big single/twin upgrade as a package, only adding extra things as you go like possibly gauges, water injection, more sophisticated management etc etc.... My advice is, as always, keep your money in you pocket and appreciate the car for what it is until you can do a big chunk in one hit. Your car will thank you for it Oh, I would reccomend an uprated fuel pump on ANY Mk4 running higher than stock boost. Japs especially. Cheers, Nathan TDI PLC PS- if spending your budget on servicing and tyres is preventing you from carrying out mods then maybe you don't need to be fitting big singles and getting through tyres at 3 times the rate..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 I have a brand new HKS fuel rail BTW if someone wants to make me an offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MONKEYmark Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 if you have no electronics at all would you be better off going straight to an aem ecu rather than mess about with millions of small boxes and piggy back electronics. doing a turbo conversion over here seems to expensive with the dreaded vat. seen a place in japan that has loads of skylines and supras lots with bodykits and big turbo conversions. t78 t88 gt twins from as little as 9k and they look mint. there was a skyline gts with an rb26 engine and big t88 pushing out 800bhp. dont know how much work they would take to get sva done. if you bought a track car like the project x boys. and you wanted to use for track only and not register it.would it still need a sva test doing? there seems to be loads of big power cars for sale but they are a lot stricter with there version of the mot. you can get a budget turbo kit in america with all the bits you need for $2500 = £1500 its based on a t61 turbo and puts out some ok numbers. it dont seem worth it going for hybrids when you have a kit like that, dont a set of hybrids cost about £1500 then you have to get them set up too. still this thread is intresting to read and makes you think twice about spending all that money when its only going to be good for 10 or 11 second car. when a tuned stock car will get you in the 12`s have fun but what do i know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ad500 Posted February 5, 2003 Author Share Posted February 5, 2003 I suppose the last alternative would be to hang on until a single comes up for sale and trade mine in. Just did a 2 minute search and came up with this. http://www.japanese-car-imports.co.uk/current_range-toyota-page7.html I guess at this price however you would expect the car to be skimped on a bit. Seems like most of the internals that weve talked about as being required to prevent the car being unreliable arnt there. Or they are but you would never know due to no history or history in japanese. Wonder what the 3 year warrenty covers??? Now if i could find all the bits over time from people who do not need them that would save loads. Terry, how much would that feul rail go for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 You would need much more info on that car. PM me about the fuel rail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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