Tuner is trying to blame me/my car - what are your thoughts?

[Guest [email protected]]

Ok guys I'm after a bit of advice on whether I should just suck this up or take it further.

 

I'm the owner of a Lexus IS300 (2JZ-GE engine) which for the past 6 months has been running on a supercharger producing 6PSI. It was tuned on a piggyback and has been running fine.

 

A few weeks ago I decided I wanted some more power, so I imported a larger 'charger from the USA and bolted it on the car. Knowing that it would produce almost twice as much boost I drove the car around sheepishly for about 2 weeks (to break-in the bearings and seals on the charger) before finding somewhere to get it tuned.

 

I eventually settled on a place called Fusion Motorsports in Surrey as I'd heard they was quite good at tuning piggies.

 

Took it down there, the tuner (Ed) looked over the car and took note of all the mods. I made him aware that it was also running methanol injection, which he advised me that he was going to disable because he didn't want the tune to rely on meth being available. At this point I informed him that my meth kit alerts me when fluid levels are low or when there is a pump failure, but he still insisted on disabling it!

 

Anyway, moving on to the actual tune that was conducted on the rolling road at SRR. The first run appeared to be at full power with the car bouncing off the red line in 3rd. I found this a bit weird as I was expecting them to slowly build up the boost over multiple runs and tune as they went along.

 

Needless to say the first pass was extremely lean with the AFR's being in the 14's at full boost. Ed made some adjustments and performed a second run, which was also still extremely lean at the top end but very rich in the middle. Here's a breakdown of the results from the dyno:

 

 

Run 1

5461 RPM / 202 HP / 14.7 AFR / 0.7 BAR

 

Run 2

5858 RPM / 196 HP / 13.0 AFR / 0.8 BAR

 

Run 3

6653 RPM / 161 HP / 13.6 AFR / 0.9 BAR

 

Run 4

6454 RPM / 219 HP / 13.4 AFR / 0.9 BAR

 

Run 5

3078 RPM / 39 HP / 12.3 AFR / 0.3 BAR

 

Run 6

6454 RPM / 219 HP / 13.5 AFR / 0.9 BAR

 

Run 7

3773 RPM / 89 HP / 11.5 AFR / 0.6 BAR

 

Run 8

6355 RPM / 240 HP / 13.0 AFR / 0.9 BAR

 

......

 

 

Run 15

6057 RPM / 265 HP / 14.3 AFR / 0.9 BAR

 

 

Clearly something was wrong that the tuner wasn't able to correct. However, the tuner continued to perform more full power runs with almost 1bar of boost and really lean AFR's, despite even me (a self confessed layman at tuning) knowing that this would probably be quite risky for the engine.

 

It wasn't until several runs in that I noticed smoke pouring out from underneath the car and waved my hands like a madman for them to stop.

 

The damage caused was cracked ringlands,a blown HG and I'm not sure if there has been any damage to the cylinder walls.

 

 

Fusion Motorsports are not accepting liability for the damage because they believe that the car may not have been in the best shape before I handed it over for tuning (despite it making a 80mile tripe to them, having a full Lexus SH and only 60k on clock, and Ed being given a ride in the car before it was tuned), but I personally believe that the damage caused was solely by the multiple lean runs, the tuners unwillingness to halt the session and the fact that the one thing that could have helped prevent the failure (meth) was disabled.

 

Thoughts?

[tooquicktostop]

Dont think you will have any come back, dyno will be at your risk

[Guest [email protected]]

What if I didn't sign a disclaimer? I wasn't given a verbal or written disclaimer of any sorts.

[tooquicktostop]

What if I didn't sign a disclaimer? I wasn't given a verbal or written disclaimer of any sorts.[/quote

 

Never heard of anyone signing a disclaimer, ever !

 

Most dynos will have one on the wall somewhere stating that all runs are at your own risk

[Josh]

What if I didn't sign a disclaimer? I wasn't given a verbal or written disclaimer of any sorts.[/quote

 

Never heard of anyone signing a disclaimer, ever !

 

Most dynos will have one on the wall somewhere stating that all runs are at your own risk

 

I had to sign one when I took mine to Dynodaze. It just said it was all at my own risk if anything at all went wrong, AFAIK.

 

Check with Rich (on here) from Dynodaze as he may know the rules and regulations of running, if there's anything official at all.

[Guest [email protected]]

My beef isn't with the dyno operator, but the tuner (different person) who continued to perform runs despite the AFR's being far too lean

[tooquicktostop]

 

I had to sign one when I took mine to Dynodaze.

 

Must just be me then , seen them on the wall, always took it for granted that you run at your own risk

[tooquicktostop]

My beef isn't with the dyno operator, but the tuner (different person) who continued to perform runs despite the AFR's being far too lean

 

You added some important detail after I responded to the first post !

[Guest [email protected]]

You added some important detail after I responded to the first post !

 

Sorry, bad habit

[letmeshowyou]

I've had to sign a disclaimer for every dyno run I've ever performed.

 

It sounds to me like the tuner is in the wrong, but just not worth the hassle persuing. Should be able to pick up a replacement engine fairly cheap I would have thought?

[CanisLupus]

Don't know how it's going in the UK but here as soon as the tuner starts he takes over the responsibility for the car and things that go wrong because of his mistakes are to be paid by him. Only thing is you'd need to confirm that it was his lean runs and not a hardware fault that ruined everything.

[jagman]

You can't tune what was a fundamentally a bad idea , your bad idea !

[dr_jekyll]

so hang on , you have a stock 2jzge on stock compression and you were running nearly 1 bar of boost? and the mapper even considerd this . i think its safe to say that if i took my na-t to 2 bar tuning on stock compression and told him to map 1 bar on a piggy back hed laughf at me and not even run the car .

 

personally id like my mapper to stop caining my car if its going lean and he can richen it up.

 

9 psi should be max on stck compression imho unless running meth to stop the det and big injectors .

[Guest [email protected]]

so hang on , you have a stock 2jzge on stock compression and you were running nearly 1 bar of boost? and the mapper even considerd this . i think its safe to say that if i took my na-t to 2 bar tuning on stock compression and told him to map 1 bar on a piggy back hed laughf at me and not even run the car .

 

personally id like my mapper to stop caining my car if its going lean and he can richen it up.

 

9 psi should be max on stck compression imho unless running meth to stop the det and big injectors .

 

I was running meth (which the tuner disabled) and I was also running big injectors.

 

I did masses of research on what was safe for my car and what was required to make it safe before making the plunge. Besides we also need to remember that this was 0.9bar only at the red-line. Not like a turbo where it spanks the car, but a slow and linear increase in pressure that should be extremely easy to tune for.

 

Unfortunately the tuner completely failed to bring my AFR's down to any reasonably safe levels and after almost 20 runs at AFR's of 13-14 the engine gave out.

[marbleapple]

I think the first point is you need to establish what the problem is and who caused it. Legally you would be required to get an independant expert to report on this point. This would establish liability and thereafter the argument goes onto quantum (if the other party agrees with the report and doesn't get their own report). You can't simply blame each other without proof as to what caused the problem. Someone needs to get evidence to prove either way and since it is your car I expect that person will need to be you.

 

With regard to disclaimers, there is a risk with Dymos and you took it however if the tuner had done the job right then no damage would have been caused by any dyno. I would argue that the dyno is not the cause of the damage but the tuner hence any disclaimer re the dyno is irrelevant.

 

You can't tune what was a fundamentally a bad idea , your bad idea !

 

Yet someone took payment to do just that, and that someone I expect knew better. I could contract with you to walk on water. It might not be possible but if I accept money in the promise to do it, I am still legally obliged to walk on water and if I fail then I breach our contract.

[Guest [email protected]]

I think the first point is you need to establish what the problem is and who caused it. Legally you would be required to get an independant expert to report on this point. This would establish liability and thereafter the argument goes onto quantum (if the other party agrees with the report and doesn't get their own report). You can't simply blame each other without proof as to what caused the problem. Someone needs to get evidence to prove either way and since it is your car I expect that person will need to be you.

 

With regard to disclaimers, there is a risk with Dymos and you took it however if the tuner had done the job right then no damage would have been caused by any dyno. I would argue that the dyno is not the cause of the damage but the tuner hence any disclaimer re the dyno is irrelevant.

.

 

Thanks for the reply mate. I've given them the opportunity to make good on the situation for what is essentially a few days of their time (they are also engine builders). They have declined this, so as you say, I think the next route is to obtain an independent report on the damage.

 

My car has been touched by nobody but Lexus main dealerships over the past 60,000 miles, so this is going to be the first place I take it. Ijust hope that the tuner is potentially ready to foot the bill.

[kill1308]

Despite the fact that the tuner may have been at fault here (I don't know much about AFR's so can't comment) I think you are going to have a hard time proving what went on, it will most likely be your word against his as to what happened on the day. Do you have any witnesses on what went on or did you at any point ask him to stop doing the runs if you felt it unsafe? Just make sure you have enough evidence for any claims to stand up before you do anything.

[Guest [email protected]]

Despite the fact that the tuner may have been at fault here (I don't know much about AFR's so can't comment) I think you are going to have a hard time proving what went on, it will most likely be your word against his as to what happened on the day. Do you have any witnesses on what went on or did you at any point ask him to stop doing the runs if you felt it unsafe? Just make sure you have enough evidence for any claims to stand up before you do anything.

 

I have a copy of all the data from the dyno run as logged by the dyno operators PC. This included the number of runs performed, the RPM/AFR/BOOST..etc on each of the runs. I also have photographs of the dyno sheets on some of the runs taken on the day, and video footage of my car being run up to the red-line with unfavourable AFR's.

 

My car also has a Car PC and Zeitronix data logger fitted that would have also logged all of thsi stuff to disk,but as that';s hardly impartial. I doubt that would count.

[jagman]

Yet someone took payment to do just that, and that someone I expect knew better. I could contract with you to walk on water. It might not be possible but if I accept money in the promise to do it, I am still legally obliged to walk on water and if I fail then I breach our contract.

 

The guy who made the choice to modify his car , takes all responsibility from the moment he made that choice ,it was his idea and research - without any details of the modification its impossible to know the reason for failure an there could be dozens!!

So what tools did the tuner have given to him ,for example EGT and maximum limits , knock control ,or indeed any data , all he can do is monitor with det cans and hope that there is no fundamental issue such as plug heat range or restricted manifold or fuel supply or ,low oil quantity ,or, or ...

he was contracted to walk on water and did so -then he sank !! no shock horror there !!!

[marbleapple]

,or, or ...he was contracted to walk on water and did so -then he sank !! no shock horror there !!!

 

Don't get me wrong, the OP might be at fault and an expert looking at the car should be able to tell. My point was that if it looks dodgy and risky then you shouldn't take money and agree do it. If you agree to do something (tune a knackered car) and contract to do so when you know it will most likely end in tears then you only have yourself to blame when the car owner looks to recover from you.

 

Someone has already said the reputable 2bar wouldn't touch it so I question why someone else would.

 

That said, there are always 2 sides to a story

[barneybrendan]

I know its a pain but the engines are dirt cheap and can be changed in a day .I was more peed off when i blew my charger up rather than the engine as it was more expensive.Surely turning the meth off was needed ,if not then you would not of been using it as a safe guard as it would of been mapped using it.My Meth will be off until the car is mapped then reconnected so its there as a safe guard.

[Ryan.G]

Jim,

 

Why are you posting this same thread on every car forum in the UK!! If you want compensation you are not going to get it by slating the company all over the internet as the courts im sure will see that the damage you have done to his business via all these threads will be far worse than your engine damage. Sorry to say it but you have no idea or right to bad mouth the guys until the engine has been inspected by a third party!

[jagman]

You choose,you modify,you fail .... Man up !

 

There is too much of a blame culture in this country.....its always someone else

[TubbyTwo]

Jim,

 

Why are you posting this same thread on every car forum in the UK!! If you want compensation you are not going to get it by slating the company all over the internet as the courts im sure will see that the damage you have done to his business via all these threads will be far worse than your engine damage. Sorry to say it but you have no idea or right to bad mouth the guys until the engine has been inspected by a third party!

 

totally agree, in slating the guy for doing something YOU have asked for across various car forums you have just done yourself a massive disservice.

 

Forget the whole thing, buy a new engine and deal with it.

[pedrosixfour]

And fit copper cored plugs to the next engine for any tuning sessions.