Paul Whiffin Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 I think this thread is being a bit unfair towards the Carbonetic Clutch. Scoobyslayer's issues were obviously nothing to do with the clutch itself. Mark's clutch problems has yet to be solved. I had a similar problem on my own car but fitting a new clutch master cylinder has fixed that one which I have suggested to Mark. Carbonetic Europes reply on this subject is as follows: "We do not class the clutch as a full carbon clutch, the friction material used is called carbon/carbon, all other manufactures use a different type of carbon to us, and theirs is pan type fibre. Looks similar to CFRP, its fine as a friction material but it requires heat in order to achieve maximum performance, its life span is not as long either and it cannot withstand higher temperatures. The images on those forums, those clutches have been slipped beyond belief, for them to turn blue it means a massive amount of heat has been transferred through the clutch. The reason I would say they are “sticking” is because the metal plates are warped way beyond any tolerable level. These clutches are not meant to be slipped, we have always advised them never to be slipped and the best way to use our triple plate for drag racing is to side step or drop the clutch, if you sit there slipping it for a prolonged period of time you are going to warp it. If those images are of your customers car that explains why the clutch isn’t working correctly! That clutch needs rebuilding, bedding in again and then if they are going to use it for drag racing, they cannot slip the clutch they will have to use another launch technique. Engagement problems, are nearly always down to warped pressure plates and intermediate plates. If those pictures are of his clutch, then they are warped. They are warped from drag racing or hard launches when the clutch is to new or excessive slipping of the clutch even after its been bedded in. The customer should know from the instructions that he cannot slip the clutch for prolonged periods, 3 seconds max we recommend. There are only two ways the clutch warps, from either bad installation (we know this isn’t the case) or from abuse to the clutch by not giving it a long enough bed in or its just been slipped. The clutch won’t warp by itself, it needs a little help from the user. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 There are only two ways the clutch warps, from either bad installation (we know this isn’t the case) In Scooby's case this seemed to be the issue. http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?254906-carbonetics-triple-clutch-issus-again-!&p=3213602&viewfull=1#post3213602 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 So to summarise this thread the reason the clutch is knackered is down to user error.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 So to summarise this thread the reason the clutch is knackered is down to user error.. And you expect them to say anything else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Whiffin Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 It can also be hydraulic issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 And you expect them to say anything else? Well no but which company wouldn't. It doesn't mean to say that there wrong does it? They have identified the discolouration of the disc's and pointed to slippage. Im not saying that its totally the users fault as it could be hydraulic related issue which has caused the mass slippage but you cant rule user error totally out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Whiffin Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Oh and we've been using Carbonetic clutches in our own cars for years. Steve Lintons race car has had his for about 3 years worth of constant abuse, Time Attacking, Racing and a bit of drag racing to, zero problems. I've had one in my own car for about the same time and again years of Time Attack and track use and only until recently have had problems similar to what Mark is experiencing which has turned out to be the clutch master cylinder, nothing to do with the clutch itself. And we also used one in our Time Attack RX7, again zero problems. I had an RPS carbon carbon a few years back and that literally fell apart, since then I've never looked back. These are in my mind the best clutches available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 (edited) Well no but which company wouldn't. It doesn't mean to say that there wrong does it? They have identified the colour discolouration of the disc's. Im not saying that its totally the users fault as it could be hydraulic related issue but you cant rule it out. Im not saying anything they have said is wrong or right, just the response is what you would expect, have you ever heard a company put there hands up and say "fair shout, the product is cr@p, have your money back sir" try sending a turbo back to Precision with melted blades, you will get back "foreign object has passed through the turbo" Edited September 19, 2011 by JamieP (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 (edited) Yeah I totally agree with that. I've had a few issues similar in the past even from the likes of Mercedes. A manufacturer will always defend its product it to the end. Edit: Just seen the previous post on the last page about it being the flywheel bolts so I guess this is all resolved now and I feel a k@ob as I thought this was Marks thread. Oops Edited September 19, 2011 by Kirk (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoooby slayer Posted September 19, 2011 Author Share Posted September 19, 2011 I think this thread is being a bit unfair towards the Carbonetic Clutch. Scoobyslayer's issues were obviously nothing to do with the clutch itself. Mark's clutch problems has yet to be solved. I had a similar problem on my own car but fitting a new clutch master cylinder has fixed that one which I have suggested to Mark. Carbonetic Europes reply on this subject is as follows: "We do not class the clutch as a full carbon clutch, the friction material used is called carbon/carbon, all other manufactures use a different type of carbon to us, and theirs is pan type fibre. Looks similar to CFRP, its fine as a friction material but it requires heat in order to achieve maximum performance, its life span is not as long either and it cannot withstand higher temperatures. The images on those forums, those clutches have been slipped beyond belief, for them to turn blue it means a massive amount of heat has been transferred through the clutch. The reason I would say they are “sticking” is because the metal plates are warped way beyond any tolerable level. These clutches are not meant to be slipped, we have always advised them never to be slipped and the best way to use our triple plate for drag racing is to side step or drop the clutch, if you sit there slipping it for a prolonged period of time you are going to warp it. If those images are of your customers car that explains why the clutch isn’t working correctly! That clutch needs rebuilding, bedding in again and then if they are going to use it for drag racing, they cannot slip the clutch they will have to use another launch technique. Engagement problems, are nearly always down to warped pressure plates and intermediate plates. If those pictures are of his clutch, then they are warped. They are warped from drag racing or hard launches when the clutch is to new or excessive slipping of the clutch even after its been bedded in. The customer should know from the instructions that he cannot slip the clutch for prolonged periods, 3 seconds max we recommend. There are only two ways the clutch warps, from either bad installation (we know this isn’t the case) or from abuse to the clutch by not giving it a long enough bed in or its just been slipped. The clutch won’t warp by itself, it needs a little help from the user. " the outer most plate is warped 0.5mm on the outside edge so within carbonetics tolerances, the reason mine has got hot is a flywheel bolt has fell out and jammed in the clutch not letting the outer clutch plate release so slipping it all the way home, i checked with carbonetics and it was all within max tolerances of wear and warpage, reinstalled earlier and the clutch is working perfect, infact better than its ever been. im at pod in 10 days so il see how it goes up there, on my previous launches its probably had about 1 second of slip, if she holds together then the carbonetics will be staying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark newman Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 what is side step, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 what is side step, Slipping your foot clean off the clutch instantly so that it snaps on. With your foot on the floor move it to the left (or right of there isn't space) sliding it off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 what is side step, Flick your foot off the clutch intead of slipping off the line, trouble is as you know, you need to slip the clutch to get away well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark newman Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 So it means dump the clutch , thats no good for drag racing , just bog on the line, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 So it means dump the clutch , thats no good for drag racing , just bog on the line, In Pauls post they say its good to slip for 3 seconds, you are never going to slip it that long, 60ft line is as far as you will ever slip it and thats 1.5-2 seconds max. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark newman Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 The customer should know from the instructions that he cannot slip the clutch for prolonged periods, 3 seconds max You would not slip a clutch more than 2 sec on a strip anyway . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark newman Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 In Pauls post they say its good to slip for 3 seconds, you are never going to slip it that long, 60ft line is as far as you will ever slip it and thats 1.5-2 seconds max. same as Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 I read some paper on heat energy dissipation in clutches used in commercial vehicles, and for drag racing, the energy figures were astonishing. This is why F3 and F1 went to full carbon / carbon clutches as the material just grips better the hotter it gets (within reason, near white hot is not an issue). They could make very low inertia units without having the high heat sink capability of 11 inch plus diameter clutches and associiated huge flywheels. The problem then, with carbon / carbon clutch assemblies is protecting the metal diaphragm spring from the heat so it doesn't lose its temper. Circuit racing is what I would want my owner to do with me, if I were a motor sports car, definitely NOT drag racing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoooby slayer Posted September 19, 2011 Author Share Posted September 19, 2011 just reading on the supraforums the carbonetics is no good at drag racing seems the general consensus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark newman Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Oh' well thats not very good . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 The customer should know from the instructions that he cannot slip the clutch for prolonged periods, 3 seconds max You would not slip a clutch more than 2 sec on a strip anyway . You shouldnt be on a 2 step for 2 secs either !!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark newman Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 no I like two step for about 45 secs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Ladyeeeeees and Gentleman I give you 2 step Newman !!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Sounds like a northern soul routine. (Nothing wrong with that...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark newman Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Dude just don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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