hodge Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 I've been looking for a new clutch over the last few hours and to be honest I'm a little confused over the different types. Would someone mind explaining the difference between the following and the benefits. Ceramic clutch 6 puk 4 puk Sprung Unsprung Duel mass flywheels. Sorry for sounding clueless but I pretty much am with clutches in all honesty and would like to understand what I'm looking at really. Thanks John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
black_widow87 Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Same here john..Not a bloody clue!! Watching with interest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodge Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 Anyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 (edited) Ceramic clutch - Ceramic is the friction material the clutch is made of, usually found on uprated street discs. 6 puk - 6 Puk is a type of clutch with 6 paddles with 6 individual friction pads on the end of each puk. 4 puk - 4 Puk is the same as a 6 puck but with 4 paddles. Sprung - Sprung clutches have springs built in designed to absorb the shock of engagement making for a smoother gear change. Unsprung - Unsprung is the opposite of above and usually paired with a dual mass flywheel. The stock setup uses this design. Dual mass flywheels - A Dual Mass Flywheel is basically two components linked together by a damping mechanism within the secondary mass and located by the central carrier bearing. The damping mechanism is there to absorb the torque loads of the crankshaft and to help deliver a smooth transfer to the road wheels. It also dampens noise and vibration which is why when you replace the stock dual mass flywheel with a light weight version the transmission sounds like marbles rattling in a can. That's actually the transmission which makes that noise. Edited September 1, 2011 by Kirk (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedrosixfour Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Ceramic clutch: Material that the friction plate is made from. As with brake components using ceramic would reduce the mass of the friction plate as well as allowing it to cope with greater temperatures efficiently. 6 puk: Regular clutches are usually a solid disc in design. Focusing the friction material into 6 or 4 or even 3 paddles or puks gives the clutch extra bite as the pressure plate is bearing down on less friction area meaning it can transfer more torque to the rear wheels before slippage becomes an issue. It probably also reduces rotational mass to an extent as a lesser consideration. 4 puk: See above Sprung: The friction plate is not directly fixed to the splines in the centre. The use of springs acts as a shock absorber and transmits less shock through the drivetrain during rapid gear changes. But it dulls the performance of the clutch ever so slightly as the springs introduce compliance to the drivetrain. Not really an issue in most circumstances though. Unsprung: The opposite of the above. Almost like a brake disc in design. Allows for total transfer of power from the engine to the wheels but puts far more stress on drivetrain components. Duel mass flywheels: Not too sure on these to be honest (not too sure on any of it!) but as far as I know a dual mass flywheel allows for easier clutch control when moving off from a standstill, it reduces the possibility of stall due to some trickery. Now none of that is gospel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedrosixfour Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Martin ya quick typin' freak! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 (edited) Fingers like lightening although I did keep it basic! It would appear my understanding of dual mass flywheels is superior to yours . Edited September 1, 2011 by Kirk (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedrosixfour Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 And I got most of it wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Damien my friend i'm no more knowledgeable than you so if you got it wrong then so did I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 He's just better at copying and pasting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Cheek on you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/dual-mass-flywheels/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Do you have a picture of the disc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodge Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 So what would be better to handle a lot of power still with good streetable use and no transmission noise. Are we talking a 6 puk sprung clutch with duel mass flyeheel?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Very few options for that unfortunately. 6 pucks are grabby, any clutch with its own flywheel will be noisy and good organic clutches will be heavy. There is a hybrid one being touted in america that seems reasonable. I would rather have a go first though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kill1308 Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 He's just better at copying and pasting Hahaa, busted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Meh it was worth a shot The rest comes from my head I think There is a hybrid one being touted in america that seems reasonable. I would rather have a go first though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 If you do not use a dual mass (stock) flywheel you MUST use a sprung hub clutch plate to have any chance at all of the gearbox not rattling, even then it's a gamble. Cerrametallic clutches, with or without pucks, do not like being slipped, and if they are slipped will wear like hell. They can also grab and judder, although Giken ones do not. They are more race than road. Choosing a race clutch is simple, choosing a clutch for a stock engine is simple. Choosing a clutch for a high torque engine that is used on the road is the tricky bit, if you want it to wear well and remain civilised. If you tell me the spec of the car, engine and transmission wise, and its intended usage I can advise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellstrom Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 (edited) Well this is just my opinion, however if you want a good clutch that can handle both torque and drives well it would be a carbon/carbon twindisc/tripple. like CW says puk discs suck and judder. when you start to slip it it will chew down the flywheel and the pads on the disc itself. aslo with a multidisc clutch it allows smoother/faster/ gear chaninging due to it totally disengage the clutch. If you aren't going for a alot of power i would use a ACT/RPS/younameit PP with a good organic disc (TRD?). is hard to spec it tho since you are using 2 diffrent components. however iam never ever buying a aftermarket singledisc clutch ever again. This is what happend to my MK3 supra with about 600 torque. i did scrap another one aswell an RPS 3200. Edited September 1, 2011 by Hellstrom (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodge Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 If you do not use a dual mass (stock) flywheel you MUST use a sprung hub clutch plate to have any chance at all of the gearbox not rattling, even then it's a gamble. Cerrametallic clutches, with or without pucks, do not like being slipped, and if they are slipped will wear like hell. They can also grab and judder, although Giken ones do not. They are more race than road. Choosing a race clutch is simple, choosing a clutch for a stock engine is simple. Choosing a clutch for a high torque engine that is used on the road is the tricky bit, if you want it to wear well and remain civilised. If you tell me the spec of the car, engine and transmission wise, and its intended usage I can advise. That would be great chris thanks. Engine:- I'm hoping for around the 800hp mark. GT42-76 turbo and associated components 4" exhaust Veilside plenum, TB and rail ID1000 injectors Greddy 4 row intercooler 4" IC pipework Gearbox:- Manual 6 speed Stock prop Large case 6 speed diff. I currently have an Ogura twin plate which is noisy as hell. Any advice on a clutch would be great chris. I would ideally like something that doesn't rattle Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Clutches are rated by toque, not power, it is important to differentiate. A stock N/A clutch would probably hold a current F1 engine, as they have little torque and rely on revs for the power, but it would fail instantly on my truck, which has sod all power, but just mega amounts of torque. The saving grace with your car will be lack of grip as you can't run wheels and tyres that are really suitable for that sort of torque, so a lot will be spun away. There's no way at all the stock flywheel will si=survive that sort of engine for long, so you will inevitably have drive train rattle from the gearbox internals and propshaft. That's what the stock flywheel dampens out. You will also need a multi plat clutch, which, in itself, will rattle. So given that rattling is inevitable you need to focus on smooth engagement and disengagement and longevity. A Giken triple plate is pretty smooth, but it's cerametallic, and doesn't like being slipped much, as it will wear fast. I would say you really need a carbon "type" clutch, the after market ones from the US aren't really carbon / carbon like a race clutch, as the cost would be prohibitive. I fitted an RPS carbon one to Julian's car which had fairly similar engine spec, and it drove very smoothly, but as for how long it would have lasted I have no idea s he wrote it off soon after It had an alloy flywheel with a bolted on friction face, which I view with suspicion as alloy g=flywheels and lots of heat are usually a very bad combination, but I never got to find out about it first hand. If you didn't mind a lot of fiddling you could look to something bespoke with a concentric release bearing and a custom flywheel witha BIG US organic clutch from one of the big block muscle cars with an uprated cover. I wouldn't put anything too heavily sprung in, cover wise, a bit of slip in the clutch if the tyres do bite suddenly, will save the rest of the drive train. My Giken triple plate in my Skyline has been no issue at all, but the car is virtually solely used on track,, and I never do fast standing starts, so wear is minimal. It rattles like hell though, as does the transmission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodge Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 I'm thinking it's going to end up being an RPS carbon triple plate then chris. I've been looking at other options due to cost but I think its inevitable that I'm just going to have to get my wallet out. The rattle at idle I suppose I can handle it's the chatter when I press the clutch pedal which is horrendous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 The rattle at idle is the gearbox internals. The rattle with the clutch depressed is the clutch plates in the clutch basket rattling. 800 BHP is from a 3 litre engine is never going to be civilised anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodge Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 The rattle at idle is the gearbox internals. The rattle with the clutch depressed is the clutch plates in the clutch basket rattling. 800 BHP is from a 3 litre engine is never going to be civilised anyway I'm going to look into a hydraulic release bearing over the winter months aswell as a new clutch. I wouldn't mind giving you a call sometime for a little advice about the hydraulic setup if you don't mind Chris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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