Noz Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Where I work we do a chemical process called SuperCase. would it be worth doing this to weak parts in the box to try and stregthen it? This topic is a common one, but this process has not been considered as far as I'm aware. Supercase is not like annealing and does not make the part more brittle. Anyone else who is familiar with this process have any considerations on this? And please don't say just buy a 6speed or r154.... if I can strengthen my box for NA-T for less than a few hundred quid I think its worth trying. The price will be this low due to being an internal employee, it may not even cost me anything, those the process is not generally this cheap and far more expensive. Opinons please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampy442 Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Got a link? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 (edited) You would have to completely dismantle the transmission to this point before you could treat it so unless your a handy engineer with the Red Toyota manual or know a really good friend I cant see the process being free The Achilles heal is the gears themselves. There just not beefy enough to handle huge torque so treating the gears is only putting off the inevitable for a little longer IMO. Edited August 24, 2011 by Kirk (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistermann Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Got a link? +1 - google didnt seem to help with this subject. Although, if it is tried and tested and you can get employee benefits then why not give it a try. If all goes wrong then use the money you have saved for another W58 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted August 24, 2011 Author Share Posted August 24, 2011 (edited) SuperCase is an idea used in ferrule's in high pressure fittings. there is information out there, not sure where online. a friend is trying to get hold of a dvd which should help more on the subject. the basic concept, is it treats the outside of the material, but not the inside. harding a component throughout will make it brittle, the supercase process increases toughness but keeps durability through having a ductile center, the same strength to that of the part before process. the main idea for this was against corrosion, as 316 rusts badly unless treated (in given situations, we have salt fog testing you'd be surprised how rubbish 316 is at corrosion resistance when put to the test). Martin, the process will be free i understand replacing parts may not be. i think it would be a SERIOUS pain in the donkey to try and get it apart. most people on here haven't claimed to have gear problems, mainly bearing issues? if i could find someone to take it apart, and replace the components for me i would like to try this. if i get NO problems i think id be prepared to do the process again and see how far i can push it? brendens supercharged NA would be a good engine to put it to the test. though it would be design for failure. Edited August 24, 2011 by Noz (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedrosixfour Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 You would have to completely dismantle the transmission to this point before you could treat it so unless your a handy engineer with the Red Toyota manual or know a really good friend I cant see the process being free http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c123/cul8r2fast4u/IMG_0701.jpg The Achilles heal is the gears themselves. There just not beefy enough to handle huge torque so treating the gears is only putting off the inevitable for a little longer IMO. That picture just made me heave a little! @ Noz Sorry I never replied to your PM buddy, I completely forgot to do so after I did a bit of looking into your process and then got side tracked! I really don't think there is one particular thing you can do to the W58 that is going to cure its weaknesses because they can fail in several different areas. The old reliables of synchros, bearings and seals are all replaceable and there is nothing you can do to improve on the original design as far as I can tell so just buy the best. The geared components themselves, the gears and the shafts, are the main concern. But from looking at my own I'd say that they are just inadequately sized to handle alot of torque and, in some areas, thrust. I doubt a case hardening process will make up for a lack of material in the long run as it's not usually as a result of gradual wear that the boxes fail IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 (edited) Martin, the process will be free i understand replacing parts may not be. i think it would be a SERIOUS pain in the donkey to try and get it apart. most people on here haven't claimed to have gear problems, mainly bearing issues? It is a serious pain in the arse to do trust me . Bearing issues are more a wear and tear thing IMO although i wont rule out some failures were down to accelerated wear from stress on the original bearings. When paired with a TT engine that produces twice the torque the box is rated to then your asking for trouble as I and Damien said the gears are not substantial enough to take the torque they will be subjected to. Dr Doom found that out the hard way. He's gone through more W58's than anyone else and I dread to think what the insides looked like. Point being subjected to abuse after a short while they will grenade themselves. Edited August 24, 2011 by Kirk (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bignum Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 James had his looked at by a gearbox expert, his had stripped the teeth on all gears apart from 4th, the expert said he was surprised it had lasted a year with 400 bhp going through it as they`re just not upto it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampy442 Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 So its basically like polishing a turd then? You can treat a boxed push beyond its limits but it wont last any longer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Not really. Your only putting off the inevitable. To make a W58 strong you need all new internals that are designed to take the abuse. Something like this. http://www.ppgearbox.com.au/page.asp?productid=42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Not really. Your only putting off the inevitable. To make a W58 strong you need all new internals that are designed to take the abuse. Something like this. http://www.ppgearbox.com.au/page.asp?productid=42 So basically not worth it !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedrosixfour Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 So basically not worth it !! That depends on your level of insanity! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 DEFINITELY not worth it, some boxes have a large over torque capacity, some don't. The W58 doesn't like shock loads or much more torque than stock. Period. Micro polish, cryogenically treat stuff, use fancy oils, do what you want, but it's gear width and gear centres that need changing, which is impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil-NA Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Not really. Your only putting off the inevitable. To make a W58 strong you need all new internals that are designed to take the abuse. Something like this. http://www.ppgearbox.com.au/page.asp?productid=42 £5300 for something that wont take as much punishment as the V160/1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedrosixfour Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 £5300 for something that wont take as much punishment as the V160/1 You try doing this with a stock V160/1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 £5300 for something that wont take as much punishment as the V160/1 He did say the W58. Want to strengthen it thats what you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Doom Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 As Martin and others have said, it's not worth the time and effort unfortunatley. If you're putting 400ish+ bhp through it then it's a ticking time bomb as to how long it will last. I destroyed two W58's and bought a third before i came to my senses and realised i needed a 6spd Getrag to cope with BPU. If i'd done it in the first place i would have a fair bit of cash. I also chewed up 3 (or possibly 4) NA open diffs, before i realised i needed a TT Torsen diff If you can get the treatment done cheaply enough (inc gearbox dissassmbly etc) then it'd be interesting to give it a go. If it's going to cost £££ then i'd give it a miss! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted September 5, 2011 Author Share Posted September 5, 2011 not sure on the cost, thing is im not 100% on what to get treated. if i knew what the weakest parts were id definitley look into it. thing is, i dont think anyones totally sure on the `weakest` parts, as they are so many. anyone got an idea on a bullet point list for weakest to strongest of the gearbox internals, i would probably try and do as many as possible. i know some people have had no issues with BPU levels on a w58, it must be due to how the box is used before conversion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Heat or cryogenic treatment, shot peening, micro polishing, etcetera are all a total waste of time and effort, the box is marginal behind an N/A 3 litre, let alone a turbo's torque through one. Just save and buy a TT or a Getrag or other suitable transmission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 You try doing this with a stock V160/1 What's the strange double tap of left foot braking the driver does just before heavy braking? At 28 seconds and 50 seconds... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 It's what people who are nervous about pad knock back or a generally iffy brake set up do to reassure themselves they'll have a pedal *BEFORE* they need it in anger Perhaps the brakes were built by the same guy who did the loom..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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