Hello, and racing orientated question that may make some of you roll your eyes...

[Guest topcat]

Hi guys n gals, first post here as you can see. I am an established member of some other forums and love building cars from bare shells to a good standard. Since I was about 16 (I'm 26 now) I have absolutely LOVED the mkiv Supra's and nearly bought an RZ a while ago, but it never happened.

 

I do however have a question which I know has been asked a million times before, and may make some of you want to shoot me... which would be better, supra or skyline?

 

...The difference between my question and the hundreds of online questions from idiots is that I'm looking at it from a realistic point of view, with regards to doing some mild budget track racing. If I was drag racing it would definitely be Supra for me, I much prefer the 2JZ engine, and the car in general, but the only advantage I can see the skyline has for track use is a big one, 4WD.

 

So, in your honest opinions, if I were to spend say 5k on a car, and 2-3k modifying it (to be either in the 300bhp or 500bhp category easy done with both cars), would the 4WD of the Skyline leave a Supra in the dust (especially in the rain), or would the 150kg weight advantage of the Supra and the nicer bigger engine be a good match for a Skyline? It would be an R33 if at all, with most of my money spent on handling and brakes rather than engine mods to start with.

 

Please don't shoot me down for this, I'm an honest guy with a lot of car knowledge, but I've seen very little of these 2 legends on tracks with corners!

 

Many thanks,

TC

[Gaz6002]

It depends on whether you can drive. The differences between the two have been discussed several times on here. Have a search.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Gaz6002
stupidity (see edit history)

[bradleyh_15]

Where is Chris Wilson when you need him?

[Josh]

500bhp would not be "easy" on a budget of £7-8k.

 

Add £10k (maybe double it) on to the price of the car to go single for the 500bhp you would want.

 

Now 400bhp (BPU) only costs about £1k (dependant upon parts used).

[Wez]

http://www.gatesgarth.com/kiesa.mpeg Edited July 12, 2011 by Wez (see edit history)

[Thorin]

which would be better, supra or skyline?

 

Saxo.

[Tricky-Ricky]

IMO the Skyline would make the better track car, for the reasons mentioned, however both cars with the right setup, there is going to be little in it, i think the RB is a little more fragile, and will require more money spent to get it reliable, whereas the 2JZ is inherently tough, so the answer is simple, 2JZGTE in a R34 chassis;)

[Gaz6002]

Personally, I'd go with RWD in either Skyline or Supra. Transmission losses are just wasted ponies

[pedrosixfour]

You would probably have a far easier time of it turning a Skyline into a serious track car.

 

I'm not saying the Supra is impossible as I've done/am doing this myself but the vast quantity of spares and upgrades readily available for the Skyline in both new and decent second hand would, in my opinion, result in more bang for your buck.

 

But do you really wanna drive a car that looks like a cavity block, albeit a quick one??

[Chris Wilson]

4 WD only becomes an advantage if you have traction issues with only two wheel drive. A really good LSD, really well sorted suspension and proper tyres should allow even a 2 WD car with little or no downforce an advantage as the weight will be a lot less, and the transmission losses similarly advantageous. Drag racing apart, the simplicity, weight saving and lesser power loss of the two wheel drive car is a major bonus unless you have so much power traction is a real problem. I have an R33 GTS-t with well sorted handling, a proper LSD and good tyres. It's just reached the point of being under tyred, but not from a traction point of view, but from a front end grip point of view. I'd have to address this with different front arches and new wheels et cetera. I have a new GTR shell I have had caged, and long term plans are to swap the good stuff over into that, but retaining two wheel drive still. The GTR shell already accommodates wider rims and tyres.

 

A MKIV Supra is far better built than a Skyline, and has far less issues with structural rust. The RB26DETT already comes with multiple throttle bodies, which is a major plus, the 2J has few if any off the shelf options for this, but nonetheless is a superb engine. Hard core suspension stuff is more readily available for the GTR. Many pluses, and many minuses, looks and cost apart. Hard one to call. Given the budget I would say buy a mint GTS-t and build a strong RB26DETT engine for it, and hope the stock gearbox doesn't blow up too soon. Do some power to weight maths and that will help make a decision.

[bradleyh_15]

There he is

[Chris Wilson]

I should have added that in the wet a powerful car with no downforce worth speaking of will almost certainly be faster with a decent (read active) 4WD set up. Turbo 2WD cars with a ski slope like power curve are particularly unpleasant in the wet, and a 4WD set up will tame them quite dramatically. A "wet map" helps, especially if you have effective VVTi mapping.

[bignum]

I can point you to some nice laps at the ring(plenty of corners) in my choice of car:)

[tkddav3]

i feel cleverer already by reading that

[Kirk]

 

The RB26DETT already comes with multiple throttle bodies

 

Do you see this as a big advantage? I like the thought of an ITB'd turbo engine but would it actually be noticeably better than a single TB?

[Guest topcat]

Wow thanks for all the replies already guys, sorry I've had another long day at work, and more to come yet.

 

You have all mentioned good points that I have kind of considered, and I'm still stuck right in the middle! Tricky Ricky I was thinking exactly that- 2JZ engine in Rxx chassis! but the regs wouldn't allow it.

 

I was also thinking that if I moved onto another type of racing where the fairly common equivalence factor comes into play- 4wd is a major disadvantage, normally 1.7 factor or something similar? At the moment I'm looking at the Nippon Challenge, most of the cars in the decent power bands are Scoobies, with a couple of Evos and 2 or 3 RX7's. Personally I think the RX7's would be the hardest competition as they weigh so little and have very good power potential, I don't feel an Impreza would be a massive challenge with a well set up Supra or Skyline.

 

If the Supra was 4wd or the Skyline had a 2JZ engine I wouldn't have any problem deciding!

 

Again as mentioned, racing in the wet is the biggest factor to consider 4wd, and in the UK wet weather racing is more than likely sometimes! If I had a huge budget I'd probably consider the RB26DET but I just feel the 2JZ-GTE is a stronger engine and more capable of higher power in stock form, I make a fair bit of custom stuff so ITB's etc aren't a problem.

 

I should have mentioned in my first post about the RX7's, being similar to the Supra as in high power RWD but around 200kg lighter are they going to be more than a handful?

[Chris Wilson]

To win you first have to finish. High boost turbo rotaries are not known for their exemplary reliability....

 

However, the FD has a fine chassis, and there's one car running in the CNC Heads North west Championship that is a regular winner, or podium finisher. It does get beaten by Caterfield type stuff though. The really reliable rotaries seem to be built from new casings, and run in championships that allow decent fuel octane levels.

[Chris Wilson]

Do you see this as a big advantage? I like the thought of an ITB'd turbo engine but would it actually be noticeably better than a single TB?

 

For circuit racing yes, most definitely.

[Guest topcat]

Yeah reliability and constant rebuild cost is the reason I've never been in love with rotaries...

[Chris Wilson]

http://www.gatesgarth.com/kiesa.mpeg

 

Please use http://www.gatesgarth.com/kiesa.mpeg in about 15 minutes, as my ftp site is off my home PC network and it's crawling with all the connections It'll be a hell of a lot faster from my hosted web site. I have had to suspend log ins via FTP, sorry.

 

Wez / mods, can you alter your post please mate to reflect the link above? Thanks

Edited July 12, 2011 by Chris Wilson (see edit history)

[Wez]

Updated my post Chris

[Chris Wilson]

Thanks Wez, should be a lot faster from there as well, cheers.

[Guest topcat]

That video is pretty awesome! Pity you can't see much of the track as well to see what's being overtaken! What's the rough spec?

[Chris Wilson]

I think it was a small single, there was a thread about it and Kiesa did have some input himself from memory. I *THINK* the thread was on here and not A N Other Supra forum.