joke Windows 7 Phones V The World.

[Jellybean]

Kinect took over the wii???

 

Did hell freeze over?

 

Guinness World Records - is the fastest-selling consumer electronics device on record.

 

If you ever played the Kinect it is a superior product in features, graphics and game play. I just could not get over how well the device works , I was very sceptical at first when I heard of a 'handheld Device free' motion sensor.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12697975

[edinlexusV8]

Honestly you cannot talk to a guy who thinks two cores takes less power than one core and increases battery life! You may aswell have 20 cores each competing and need no battery and the phone can run on thin air according to your argument! End of discussion ...

[Abz]

I read through most of this thread, I currently have in my possession:

 

iPhone 3GS (brought 2 years ago)

Samsung Omnia 7 (brought 8 months ago)

Blackberry Curve (About 1 year old)

Samsung Galaxy S2 (24 hours old)

 

I can confirm the windows 7 is not up the standard of current smart phones, even my 2 year old 3GS is better.

 

I use a lot of Microsoft products through work & MS do create some great software & as usual not so great ones too. All our server OS's are pretty good & so is windows 7 but windows 7 mobile? They have a lot of catching up to do. The layout, the quality of the icons & user ability is rubbish. What MS needs to understand with everything going smart phone route, you will have a lot of non techie people using it. That is just the way it is, so you need to make it easy to use & it needs to work well.

 

Hope that ends the argument.

[edinlexusV8]

Not end of argument really ...

 

I agree with your first argument that Windows phone 7 is a bit behind in terms of features when compared with an iPhone or an Android phone. It has only been in the market less than an year compared to other ecosystems. The new mango release has almost brought it on par with other smart phone OSes but still a bit behind in a few features. Also Abz you should update your phone to Windows Phone 7.5 (Mango) to get the latest features.

 

I disagree with you on the second argument about WP7 being less intuitive or lack of usability on the UI of the OS. In my opinion integrated hubs are more intuitive for a normal user (esp for an ex feature phone to smart phone convert) than thousands of apps.

[edinlexusV8]

Good article if anybody is interested to bother about WP7.5

 

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/reviews/2011/10/real-competition-from-redmond-windows-phone-7-mango-reviewed.ars/

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2011/oct/18/mango-microsoft-smartphone-windows

[Thorin]

Honestly you cannot talk to a guy who thinks two cores takes less power than one core and increases battery life! You may aswell have 20 cores each competing and need no battery and the phone can run on thin air according to your argument! End of discussion ...

 

Go read up on voltage scaling and processor sleep modes. Since each core in a dual-core chip is clocked lower and uses less power than a single core equivalent, if the processor usage isn't needed then the second core can be put to sleep. Dual-core chips can be more power efficient than single core, but whether you'll see much/any difference is hard to say.

[Scott]

Honestly you cannot talk to a guy who thinks two cores takes less power than one core and increases battery life! You may aswell have 20 cores each competing and need no battery and the phone can run on thin air according to your argument! End of discussion ...

 

 

You really have no idea what you are talking about do you?

[imi]

Ha ha , everybody loves to Hate Microsoft; just as well Apple and Google have a good PR dept! MS , Google, Apple are all as bad as one another; everything is profit driven, no hang on I forgot Google and Apple are ethnically and morally the blueprint for a corporate company ha ha!

 

A few years back who would have said Sony would be in the position they are now, and the Kinect over doing the WII! Next OS released by MS I think will be a big surprise to the smart phone community, give it 1-2 years MS will be up there competing for market share, and as a consumer I hope they do -- choice is good and competiton drives inovation!

 

For now I will stick to an Android/IPhone but I definetly would not rule out MS!

 

You cannot denie hub-centric system is a smart intuitive piece of architecture!It is the Direction to go!

 

Bill is now joined by Balmer...

 

[Scott]

Guinness World Records - is the fastest-selling consumer electronics device on record.

 

If you ever played the Kinect it is a superior product in features, graphics and game play. I just could not get over how well the device works , I was very sceptical at first when I heard of a 'handheld Device free' motion sensor.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12697975

 

That doesn't mean it's taken over the Wii. There are still FAR more people using/playing the Wii than there are the kinect. I have played the kinect and whilst I really enjoyed it, I couldn't have it as my living room isn't large enough. You need a HUGE area of space to make any use of the thing. The Wii is fine in the smallest of kids bedrooms so IMO it will continue to stay ahead of the kinect until the next gen wii is out..... which will then probably surpass the kinect.

 

The graphics are nothing to do with the kinect though, they are to do with the xbox 360 which is technologically far more advanced than a Wii. Couple into that that the Kinect is an accessory, far cheaper than a console, it's fairly acceptable that the sales are faster than a console. Was the Wii previously the fastest selling electronic device? I would be surprised if it was.

[imi]

are they now making some money out of the XBOX or not?

 

is their mobile division now part of their Windows line of business or still separate.....could explain why it looks and behaves so different

[Jellybean]

That doesn't mean it's taken over the Wii. There are still FAR more people using/playing the Wii than there are the kinect. I have played the kinect and whilst I really enjoyed it, I couldn't have it as my living room isn't large enough. You need a HUGE area of space to make any use of the thing. The Wii is fine in the smallest of kids bedrooms so IMO it will continue to stay ahead of the kinect until the next gen wii is out..... which will then probably surpass the kinect.

 

The graphics are nothing to do with the kinect though, they are to do with the xbox 360 which is technologically far more advanced than a Wii. Couple into that that the Kinect is an accessory, far cheaper than a console, it's fairly acceptable that the sales are faster than a console. Was the Wii previously the fastest selling electronic device? I would be surprised if it was.

 

Next generation of the Kinect is aiming towards online shopping; Nintendo will have to do something amazing to compete!

 

Kinect is an accessory what that go to do with anything, the Wii needs to use accessaries to function; as a whole the Kinect is a superior product over the WII.

 

Anything MS does , you will always be against it , we all get it; you hate MS for some reason!

[Jellybean]

Not end of argument really ...

 

I agree with your first argument that Windows phone 7 is a bit behind in terms of features when compared with an iPhone or an Android phone. It has only been in the market less than an year compared to other ecosystems. The new mango release has almost brought it on par with other smart phone OSes but still a bit behind in a few features. Also Abz you should update your phone to Windows Phone 7.5 (Mango) to get the latest features.

 

I disagree with you on the second argument about WP7 being less intuitive or lack of usability on the UI of the OS. In my opinion integrated hubs are more intuitive for a normal user (esp for an ex feature phone to smart phone convert) than thousands of apps.

 

Interesting to see MS position this time next year; nice to get some more market competition!

[edinlexusV8]

Go read up on voltage scaling and processor sleep modes. Since each core in a dual-core chip is clocked lower and uses less power than a single core equivalent, if the processor usage isn't needed then the second core can be put to sleep. Dual-core chips can be more power efficient than single core, but whether you'll see much/any difference is hard to say.

 

Good joke ... you go read up on dual core chips. Dual core chips are more efficient DOESNOT mean they use less power than single core. It only means that they dont use twice the power of single core. But over all they use more power than single core and the battery lasts shorter.

 

http://www.tested.com/news/dual-core-vs-single-core-arm-what-does-an-extra-core-really-get-you/2337/

 

 

[Scott]

Next generation of the Kinect is aiming towards online shopping; Nintendo will have to do something amazing to compete!

 

Kinect is an accessory what that go to do with anything, the Wii needs to use accessaries to function; as a whole the Kinect is a superior product over the WII.

 

Anything MS does , you will always be against it , we all get it; you hate MS for some reason!

 

Where did I say I hate MS? I love windows 7 and I quite enjoy my Xbox. MS Office was pretty good up till 2003, from there it went massively downhill for me but that may be personal preference.

 

As I said, the Kinect setup requires a large living room to operate. It will never be as mainstream as the Wii as not enough people have the space for them. Even if they did I highly doubt everyone would just go out and buy an Xbox for the Kinect games. This is nothing to do with whether I like or dislike the device, as I stated I like it (did you miss that part?), it's got to do with simple logistics.

[Scott]

Good joke ... you go read up on dual core chips. Dual core chips are more efficient DOESNOT mean they use less power than single core. It only means that they dont use twice the power of single core. But over all they use more power than single core and the battery lasts shorter.

 

http://www.tested.com/news/dual-core-vs-single-core-arm-what-does-an-extra-core-really-get-you/2337/

 

 

 

 

Ahh, backpeddling. Fantastic.

 

Have a look at my statement that you rubbished and see what part of it is innacurate based on your now re-jigged argument.

[edinlexusV8]

Ahh, backpeddling. Fantastic.

 

Have a look at my statement that you rubbished and see what part of it is innacurate based on your now re-jigged argument.

 

Dont know what you are talking about Scott but if you look at your post#37 on this thread when I said dual cores suck at battery life you said they dont and they actually use less power implying that battery lasts longer. How am I backtacking?

[Scott]

Dont know what you are talking about Scott but if you look at your post#37 on this thread when I said dual cores suck at battery life you said they dont and they actually use less power implying that battery lasts longer. How am I backtacking?

 

If you are going to quote something I say at least quote the context it's said in.

 

I said that they are more efficient meaning that to do a task they consume less power which is true.

 

The new dual core phones haven't just been equipped with a dual core processor and left to it, they have been specially designed to use the technology in a clever fashion to conserve the energy (the stuff Michael was talking about). Couple in with that the fact that when they ARE doing something, they do it more efficiently than a single core processor this leads to more efficent and less power hungry phones (for the process).

 

Clearly as they are dual core they can do a LOT more than a single core processor so if you are using a processor heavy app or multiple apps (as would most likely be the case) the phone will obviously drain faster and the cores will obviously use more power than a single core. That has no bearing on the efficiency though.. which is everything. The amount of time vs the power consumed to do a task is where the comparison must be based, everything else is just unfair.

 

The advances in the way the processors are used has meant that my SGII outlasts my old HTC Desire by a few days on standby. I can get through a whole weekend (friday - monday) with moderate use whereas I was lucky to get through 2 days previously.

[Abz]

Not end of argument really ...

 

I agree with your first argument that Windows phone 7 is a bit behind in terms of features when compared with an iPhone or an Android phone. It has only been in the market less than an year compared to other ecosystems. The new mango release has almost brought it on par with other smart phone OSes but still a bit behind in a few features. Also Abz you should update your phone to Windows Phone 7.5 (Mango) to get the latest features.

 

I disagree with you on the second argument about WP7 being less intuitive or lack of usability on the UI of the OS. In my opinion integrated hubs are more intuitive for a normal user (esp for an ex feature phone to smart phone convert) than thousands of apps.

I'll update it this weekend & report back to this thread, it better be a big update.

[Thorin]

Good joke ... you go read up on dual core chips. Dual core chips are more efficient DOESNOT mean they use less power than single core. It only means that they dont use twice the power of single core. But over all they use more power than single core and the battery lasts shorter.

 

http://www.tested.com/news/dual-core-vs-single-core-arm-what-does-an-extra-core-really-get-you/2337/

 

 

 

I was going to argue, but you're just being a troll now.

[imi]

I was going to argue, but you're just being a troll now.

 

that implies a change in his behaviour...

[Jellybean]

Can we all not just get along! If if's and But's where candy and Nuts....

[edinlexusV8]

My point mentioned way up on this thread still stands "that a dual core phone uses way more battery than a single core phone". My argument is about battery life on dual cores not about efficiency of core. A phone with a single core arm chip with a 1500mA battery lasts longer than with a dual core arm chip and the same battery.

 

Multi-core architectures with sleep cycles/modes have been in the server n PC environments for dogs years. Nothing new there. There is no enough plumbing with in the Android OS in Froyo or Gingerbread for that matter to take advantage of dual or multi core chips. With ICS you should be able to use less power than single cores to do the same job n the battery could lasts the same as single core or even longer than single core phones.

 

Scott - You may be experiencing longer battery life on your dual core either because you have a bigger battery or the chip technology itself is smaller consuming less power. Also there may be OS optimizations & on the top of that your old phone has older battery and these batteries have a habit of getting worse at retaining the charge down the time as they get older.

[Thorin]

Ah more backpedaling.

[caseys]

My point mentioned way up on this thread still stands "that a dual core phone uses way more battery than a single core phone". My argument is about battery life on dual cores not about efficiency of core. A phone with a single core arm chip with a 1500mA battery lasts longer than with a dual core arm chip and the same battery.

 

Many assumptions there. Clock speed, materials and also die/transistor size, cache sizing also take into account total power draw/thermal requirements of any given chip or core. Some dual core low power chips use less power than single core chips, as well as you have to look at either single thread or multi-thread performance/requirements. What's most important varies by application - single thread then that's fine. SMP or multiple single-threaded applications spread evenly still again require analysis of your performance per watt.

 

Unless we take this dual/single core to a comparison of a model and what you're getting per core per watt, this arguement is just pointless.

 

Multi-core architectures with sleep cycles/modes have been in the server n PC environments for dogs years. Nothing new there. There is no enough plumbing with in the Android OS in Froyo or Gingerbread for that matter to take advantage of dual or multi core chips. With ICS you should be able to use less power than single cores to do the same job n the battery could lasts the same as single core or even longer than single core phones.

Define dogs years? Core shutdowns or at least trickle feed on them probably 3-4 years in consumer/distributed application. No core is truly shutdown unless you have it shutdown from the start. Not many designs or OS are able to literally do the equiv of a bootstrap to a core whilst the OS is up or if the other cores are using/reserved cache which'd be allocated to that shutdown core if you powered it up. Yes you can take power usage down to single % figures, but generally this has been due to ramping up the clock speed on the other cores for faster single-threaded execution - equivalent of leaving an engine idle of minimal fuel, rather than it literally not running.

 

Generally non-exploitation of multi-core hardware comes down to crap application design or sloppy developers not taking on the complexity of multi-threading any application, or skirting around it and using an arbitration system to distribute to multiple threads. Got any info on this ICS? I do love the word *should*, it's like a drug to me when vendors use it.

 

Also many OS do not truly yet exploit multi-core/thread/chip architectures yet unless they're an entirely closed solution (HW/firmware/OS designed by a single vendor), or I would say it's in it's infancy. Even in enterprise systems. Intel et al can push out some very clever designs, but then it's their partners down to using it to the full. Good chip design is showing up flaws now in memory and other sections of IO, it's hard to get a truly fast and efficient system to have memory, buses and storage to feed it.

 

Again, well yes, maybe some mobile OS do not yet have effective use of multi-threaded systems but again - without applications using them it's a mute point. Dual-core in phones whilst useful to spread the load currently imho is a marketing tool, drawing in the same people who think megapixel count is everything on a camera, or screen size is everything on a display. Useful? Yes sometimes. Vital? No. Truly beneficial or exploited yet? No.

 

An efficient OS is one that can literally run 99% utilised 99% of the time - otherwise you're being sloppy. I'm counting CPU, memory and storage usage in that ethos tho.

 

Scott - You may be experiencing longer battery life on your dual core either because ... the chip technology itself is smaller consuming less power.

 

So aren't you contradicting your first point?

 

New ARM chip looks interesting though - a thorn in Intel's side. I do love the chippy blokes from Cambridge.

So when are we going to start discussing other things that should be looked at rather than just cramming more hardware in? like better memory utilisation? More efficient application and OS design in general rather than any 'appendage waving' of 'oooh i've got a dual core phone'?

 

Have a read of some of the enterprise and HPC space sometime where we even have to take into consideration memory allocation to book/chip/core allocation because we're shaving oh... micrometres off the distance between memorybuscore. When you're doing millions of I/O every micrometre counts.

 

Not kidding ... Try Zune you will never go back to iTunes. Coz I have tried both and I know. Anyway you dont have to use Zune for music, there are others like spotify you can use that have a subscription model.

 

BTW you still using this?

 

I hope you take all this as an objective discussion, I'm not trolling (or not trying to) and like a good healthy debate.

 

I did like windows. NT4 was good.

[caseys]

Wow just having had a re-read of this thread it's like an intermixed plethora of threads merged into one.

 

Lbm you're playing with us all as if we're mere puppets in your banana-encased world