JS2004 Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 More often than not though the person who picks up the weapon is going to end up with it being used on themselves. The downside to this is that the criminals will get "tooled up" properly prior to committing the crime, in the knowledge that they may be faced with an armed home-owner. Theyre still going to commit the crime, but will have a knife / gun / bat as well as the crowbar and bolt croppers. The good side is that it may deter some burglars, and if someone steps foot in your house, with an intention to steal and possibly kill people in doing so, you should be able to react with unrestrained force because you dont know their intentions. I think when I watched "law abiding citizen" the opening scene isnt far from what can happen in reality, especially if you are unable to defend yourself from the person/s unlawfully entering your home. Failing that, why cant we simply cut the hand off of a convicted burglar - would stop them doing it, and if it doesnt, take the other hand off aswell. The law has protected criminals for too long. My bike was recently stolen, I know who by, and where they live, but the police seem either unable to do a thing or generally just not interested - though they were quick to warn me if I took it back by force or "stole" it back I would be up the creek without a paddle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attero Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 The law has protected criminals for too long. My bike was recently stolen, I know who by, and where they live, but the police seem either unable to do a thing or generally just not interested - though they were quick to warn me if I took it back by force or "stole" it back I would be up the creek without a paddle! My brother had the same problem. He found the guy riding his bike around one day and went to hit him in the face. He rode off happy knowing he had his bike back and a knocked out thief bought to justice. It got stolen again by the very same person later that week and was once again caught by my brother. It was hilarious. They never learn. But more importantly, he never contact the police. It's not worth it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lbm Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 ...though they were quick to warn me if I took it back by force or "stole" it back I would be up the creek without a paddle! So if you were to nip down to your local station and "borrow" one of their cars, they shouldn't mind too much? Because obviously when they try to "steal" it back, I presume they'd be up the creek without a paddle! I think I see how this works now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbleapple Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Slightly bemused by this thread. The news article states: But the government is set to place people's right to defend their property, long present in common law, in statute law. Posters on here are pleased that they will be able to do something that they have always been able to do. The only different being that the Courts will apply a statute as opposed to applying common law which gives the same rights. It still won't make pre meditated actions such as shooting people in the back as they run away acceptable (Tony Martin) the lines between what is "acceptable" and what isn't are massively blurred. I don't agree, its totally clear. Reasonable force judged by the ordinary person is fine. Unreasonable force isn't. Case law is past cases, in effect an example of what has gone on before. I.e. on the issue of self defence and pre meditated murder, there is the cases where the wife stabs husband once in an argument vs the case where she went to the petrol station, bought petrol, walked home and turned sleeping husband into a bonfire (true case). Statute can't give examples or add depth like case law. I reckon statute will cause more problems then case law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 You have to 'box clever' in regards to the criminal justice system in this country. A handy acronym - JAPAN = Justified, Appropriate, Proportionate, Auditable, Necessary. Fulfilling this as accurately as possible should keep you on the straight and narrow. In terms of budget cuts the police have been absolutely decimated. Cutting jobs, pay and some very effective specialist units. Its very difficult to maintain motivation when ridiculous legislation and a poorly run government intrude on the way the job is done. If things carry on the way they are I have no doubt people will take things into their own hands more and more. Just be aware a little accurate knowledge of the law is a powerful thing! JAPAN, I like that and will try and commit it to my stuttering memory I am lucky here, any sign of trouble I just send the wife out armed with some of her cooking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westy Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 The police would still arrest and charge you for any force used...this simply states that you have a defence when it goes to court! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abz Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Marble, thank you for clarifying, I thought that is what was covered in the article or lack of it. One thing I want to cover though, a few years back whilst on the way home from the very depths of Wales we got a little lost as a small bridge we cross was closed. The Sat Nav was having trouble working out a route so we used our common sense & drove in the direction of where we needed to head to. Anyway we ended up on a farm & it was around 11pm, the farmer came out & what to us looked like a shotgun but when he came closer we stopped peeing in our pants to see it was a thick wooden pole. We ended up threspassing his property & he kindly showed us the way back. What if he had a shotgun & shot us out of fear? 4 youngish lads in Chrysler 300c on his farm! Then dragged us in the house & called the police? Whats stopping him from just saying we was burglars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havard Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 I watched a programme about the police investigation actually. It made for interesting viewing. I always felt sorry for him but never knew the finer details of him booby trapping his house etc. He'd been burgled many times before though. How many times would it take before you killed someone.? For me, he left it too long before dishing out some retribution. H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkddav3 Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 if someone broke into my house, the so called intruder would certainly get an arse whoopin, got taekwondo on thier arse and if that didnt work id bring out the nunchucks! theyd have to be carried away! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hagar Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 there is the cases where the wife stabs husband once in an argument vs the case where she went to the petrol station, bought petrol, walked home and turned sleeping husband into a bonfire (true case).. the price of petrol nowadays i believe she did commit a serious crime, had she no kitchen knives/rolling pins/heavy fryingpans? as for having guns and keeping them unloaded, not really worth it, shame they made samurai swords illegal, they don't need reloading and can turn sticky fingers into slippery detached fingers in the blink of an eye! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted June 29, 2011 Author Share Posted June 29, 2011 Marble, thank you for clarifying, I thought that is what was covered in the article or lack of it. One thing I want to cover though, a few years back whilst on the way home from the very depths of Wales we got a little lost as a small bridge we cross was closed. The Sat Nav was having trouble working out a route so we used our common sense & drove in the direction of where we needed to head to. Anyway we ended up on a farm & it was around 11pm, the farmer came out & what to us looked like a shotgun but when he came closer we stopped peeing in our pants to see it was a thick wooden pole. We ended up threspassing his property & he kindly showed us the way back. What if he had a shotgun & shot us out of fear? 4 youngish lads in Chrysler 300c on his farm! Then dragged us in the house & called the police? Whats stopping him from just saying we was burglars? Years ago me and a mate were riding our bikes round some fields by mine (jumping off bumps in the field) then as we got into another field (granted we had to hop a fence) and started riding down the hill we heard "Oi, stop where you ******* are!!" and saw this fat farmer with a shotgun in his hand dragging a Jack Russell (literally dragging it down the hill) running towards us. We stopped as requested and as well as a lot of swearing he said "I could by all rights have shot the both of you now go away (w/swearing) and never come back here" at which time he reloaded the shotgun. We left, tails between legs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamuraiFlash Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Excellent news! My house was broken into about two years ago while the whole famly were asleep. Two scum bags wanted the keys to my fathers range rover, they couldnt find it so left off with our Vauxhall Zafira. If that was to ever happen again I would lay the smack down on the mo'fo's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty71 Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Excellent news! My house was broken into about two years ago while the whole famly were asleep. Two scum bags wanted the keys to my fathers range rover, they couldnt find it so left off with our Vauxhall Zafira. If that was to ever happen again I would lay the smack down on the mo'fo's! dont you mean the rock bottom?? or better still the peoples elbow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BByG879x7c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamuraiFlash Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 dont you mean the rock bottom?? or better still the peoples elbow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BByG879x7c Rock bottom, followed by the peoples elbow and then the tombstone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbleapple Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Marble, thank you for clarifying, I thought that is what was covered in the article or lack of it. One thing I want to cover though, a few years back whilst on the way home from the very depths of Wales we got a little lost as a small bridge we cross was closed. The Sat Nav was having trouble working out a route so we used our common sense & drove in the direction of where we needed to head to. Anyway we ended up on a farm & it was around 11pm, the farmer came out & what to us looked like a shotgun but when he came closer we stopped peeing in our pants to see it was a thick wooden pole. We ended up threspassing his property & he kindly showed us the way back. What if he had a shotgun & shot us out of fear? 4 youngish lads in Chrysler 300c on his farm! Then dragged us in the house & called the police? Whats stopping him from just saying we was burglars? I wouldn't worry too much mate about this. If it happened you would be dead so what does it matter. I suspect the police would investigate CSI Miami style, spot that shotgun shell had peppered your car and that there was litres of blood sprayed all over the yard and start to think it was all a set up. I'd be more concerned of your parents or wife stabbing you and claiming she thought you were a burglar. Again though they would need to explain why your head was no longer connected to your neck if they only stabbed you once (they claim). Sawing off your head is not what a reasonable person would do. With regard to shooting burglars, my tip would be to aim for the knees. Much easier to claim you had no intention to kill if they do die (manslaughter as opposed to murder - no statutory minimum sentence for manslaughter like there is for murder). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie_b Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Posters on here are pleased that they will be able to do something that they have always been able to do. The only different being that the Courts will apply a statute as opposed to applying common law which gives the same rights. As has been pointed out, a change in the law isn't being suggested by Ken Clarke: he merely wants to clarify the existing law (reading between the lines, I imagine that means reminding people what they can already do). Marbleapple's bit about statute vs common law is interesting although i don't know enough about law to understand its implications. There's some classic keyboard-warrioring in this thread. I doubt if people would be so brave when they're not hiding behind Windows 7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannhauser Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Whats stopping him from just saying we was burglars? A reasonable grasp of grammar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 a reasonable grasp of grammar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 A reasonable grasp of grammar? You on strike again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannhauser Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 You on strike again? On strike, no. On form, yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Good man, not seen one of your enjoyable posts for a while, everything tickety boo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannhauser Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Good man, not seen one of your enjoyable posts for a while, everything tickety boo? The dentist just told me I have gingivitis, and that it's caused by laziness, and that I had better learn to love soup, because that's my future. Then he charged me £47.50. Other than that, fine, thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbourner Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Good man, not seen one of your enjoyable posts for a while, everything tickety boo? He hasn't replied to his old thread that I dug up from the grave yet: http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?205535-Crime-punishment-and-free-will Or the very similar one which needs his input: http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?249352-Black-holes-hologram-theory-and-conservation-of-information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havard Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I found this to be a good guide..!! http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/8445/burglarysm.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 With regard to shooting burglars, my tip would be to aim for the knees. Much easier to claim you had no intention to kill if they do die (manslaughter as opposed to murder - no statutory minimum sentence for manslaughter like there is for murder). That's the last thing you should do. If you introduce a firearm to a situation, it's for one reason and one reason only - to stop that person. Center of mass every time If you miss and they tackle you and get the gun, you've made things exponentially worse with regards to the risk to your and your families' lives. If you can't justify shooting someone then you shouldn't be doing it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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