National Mileage Register - How Reliable?

[Havard]

Just been to look at a Toyota Celica for Mrs H. 2004 on a 54 plate.

 

Looked at the car and it seemed fine, a couple of car park dings and a bit of laquer damege on the front bumper due to stone chips. The interior is excellent generally and the gear knob and pedals are showing a small amount of wear for a car with 61K miles on the clock. The guy had a full RAC check done when he bought the car 2 years ago and it was given a glowing reference. The check confirmed the miles at just under 46K.

 

I decided that we would take it as the seller dropped his price from £4300 to £4K. He had an incomplete service history which shows the first two services but then nothing after that. I am going to check with Toyota on Monday to see if it has been services at a dealer. It had a lot of recent receipts for services over the last two years but the services from 20K to 40K were incomplete. He had the last three MOTs from 2008 onwards and the mileage checks out.

 

This is where the fun begins. I HPI'd the car and it passed all the tests, I went all over the car and nothing rang any alarm bells as far as the mileage was concerned. The HPI people then say as a throw away comment "There is mileage discrepancy on this car". I asked them what they meant and they gave me some details of dates and mileages. Looking at the paperwork the car is straight and the mileages are from a number of different sources as follows.

 

Car was new in 2004. We have the first two services in the record that show 6K miles and 13K miles but then the car was out of warranty as they were only 12 months in 2004. I expect that it hopefully was serviced at an independant.

 

The missing history is from what I assume is the second keeper of the vehicle. The guy who is selling it now bought it from a garage in August 2009 with 45,800 miles on the clock. The previous MOT states that the car had 39,500 on the clock in Feb 2009 so it has done 6K miles in 6 months which is average. He gets it MOT'd the following February with 50K on it in 2010 and he then has the last MOT in Feb 2011 with 58K on it. The car is now on 61121 miles which is consistent with all the previous mileages since this guy has owned the car.

 

Whilst on the phone to HPI they tell me that in June 2009 the car had 46000 on the clock which is the 45,800 rounded up when I assume it spent about 8 weeks on a dealers forecourt. They then claim that in September 2009 the mileage was 36000, the source of this information is not available....

 

The guy who is selling the car is going nuts as he bought is with late 45K's on the clock and he has never contacted anyone about the mileage other than when he's has it MOT'd. The whole situation doesn't make any sense as all the paperwork from 39000 onward looks straight and the National Mileage Register are suggesting that he somehow clocked the car and then put 15K miles on it in 5 months.....

 

After looking at Pistonheads and other consumer websites it seems that there are loads of cars with plenty of proof of the mileage and the NMR seem to come up with outlandish mileages and they then will not change their records.

 

Subsequently I have put a £100 deposit on the car and I will collect it on Tuesday. I am just wondering if I am going to have problems when I sell it. The car is low value and I wonder if anyone will HPI when I come to sell it. The car is in really good knick and 61K is reasonable for the condition, it has a few marks, the brake and hubs could do with a wire brush etc.

 

Sorry for the long post but I have found a nice car but the mileage discrepancy has cast doubt and the guy selling the car is really upset that his "straight" car has meant that a potential buyer could walk away.

 

H.

[Havard]

Hmm, maybe the original post was too long then?

[JamieP]

Hmm, maybe the original post was too long then?

 

I got bored after you said celica:d

[Havard]

I got bored after you said celica:d

 

It's for a lady...!!

 

I wish I had not posted up. Surely someone must have had something crop up on a HPI check?

 

H.

[Swampy442]

Where would HPI get the mileage information from? IMO if the MOTs stack up Id be happy, plus its a low mileage car so I wouldnt be overly fussed anyway. Just my 2p's worth

[Havard]

Where would HPI get the mileage information from? IMO if the MOTs stack up Id be happy, plus its a low mileage car so I wouldnt be overly fussed anyway. Just my 2p's worth

 

I am going to ring them on Monday and find out and so is the bloke who is selling the car. They are basically saying that the car has been clocked whilst he owned it. This guy doesn't have a clue about cars (that's not saying that he couldn't have paid for someone to do it but why would you clock a car and cock up all the history you have in your possession?)

 

My only worry is that the next potential buyer may not be as open minded as I am. We have been on the VOSA website trying to piece together the history of the car and the trail of time and mileage seems to add up. It did have a 5 month gao beween MOT's whic could have been that the second owner forgot to MOT it or had it SORNed.

 

I imagine most people don't research in much depth, a lot of cars we have been shopping for don't have any history at all. Getting a car under 4 grand with full history isn't going to be easy is it?

 

H.

[Swampy442]

When you cal HPI again furnish them with the info you found, its gotta be a data input error if everything looks ok. Bit crap if the people you rely on to make sure the car is OK cant get it right

[Abz]

I imagine most people don't research in much depth, a lot of cars we have been shopping for don't have any history at all. Getting a car under 4 grand with full history isn't going to be easy is it?

 

H.

 

Paul, if you check the MOT history online does it match up to the MOT's?

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/Mot/DG_10020539

 

To be totally honest, if say I brought the Celica on 61k today, clocked 25,000 miles in 12 months, had the clocks changed so then it read 64k (which means I did 3k in 12 months), then had it MOT'd and then serviced by a dealer, no one but myself would know! Even the HPI people will have no idea about it!

 

Personally I'd go with how well the car looks maintained, like you said it looks in good condition for its age.

 

Like you said, I am not sure the next buyer would go as in-depth as you have.

[Havard]

Paul, if you check the MOT history online does it match up to the MOT's?

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/Mot/DG_10020539

 

To be totally honest, if say I brought the Celica on 61k today, clocked 25,000 miles in 12 months, had the clocks changed so then it read 64k (which means I did 3k in 12 months), then had it MOT'd and then serviced by a dealer, no one but myself would know! Even the HPI people will have no idea about it!

 

Personally I'd go with how well the car looks maintained, like you said it looks in good condition for its age.

 

Like you said, I am not sure the next buyer would go as in-depth as you have.

 

Cheers Abz. Yes all the MOT's that are in the owners possession match up with the VOSA data base. The car had 18K on it at it's first MOT and this is consistent with the service history as it average 6K miles between services (12 months). It has then gone from 18K to 39K in 18 months which is still only 12/13K a year with the second owner. It just looks as if the second owner didn't keep receipts or MOT's when he sold it on or traded it in. The engine oil is lovely and golden and coolant although slightly low was a lovely pink colour.

 

I am now satisfied that we should get it back to Chateax Havard and sort out a couple of it's niggles and we should be laughing.

 

H.

[Abz]

Cheers Abz. Yes all the MOT's that are in the owners possession match up with the VOSA data base. The car had 18K on it at it's first MOT and this is consistent with the service history as it average 6K miles between services (12 months). It has then gone from 18K to 39K in 18 months which is still only 12/13K a year with the second owner. It just looks as if the second owner didn't keep receipts or MOT's when he sold it on or traded it in. The engine oil is lovely and golden and coolant although slightly low was a lovely pink colour.

 

I am now satisfied that we should get it back to Chateax Havard and sort out a couple of it's niggles and we should be laughing.

 

H.

No worries mate

 

Sounds like a lovely example, I was looking into Celica's when looking for a temp replacement for the Supra. You done the right thing going for a 2004 model. They had an engine revision in 2003 as the older engines have a tendency to die around the 50-70k mark due to the piston rings getting stuck & causing excessive oil usage which a lot of owners don't notice or check regularly. My friend brought a 2001 & the same thing happened to him. He in the end he brought a engine out of a 2004 avensis (1.8 VVTi) & stuck that in.

 

Also Tracey (TJP) has a 2004/5 Celica too!

[Havard]

No worries mate

 

Sounds like a lovely example, I was looking into Celica's when looking for a temp replacement for the Supra. You done the right thing going for a 2004 model. They had an engine revision in 2003 as the older engines have a tendency to die around the 50-70k mark due to the piston rings getting stuck & causing excessive oil usage which a lot of owners don't notice or check regularly. My friend brought a 2001 & the same thing happened to him. He in the end he brought a engine out of a 2004 avensis (1.8 VVTi) & stuck that in.

 

Also Tracey (TJP) has a 2004/5 Celica too!

 

I don't suppose she knows where the engine number is?

[Soopra]

It's for a lady...!!

 

 

some of us "ladies" drive Supras!!

[Abz]

some of us "ladies" drive Supras!!

Vicky drives Havard's Supra too

[ronttuk]

HPI said my old supra had been a total loss 1991 funny it was a 1994 j spec imported in 2002 !!

[Havard]

I am learning not to trust this information as it seems to be bollocks. I feel better that I paid £26 to be worried and then bought the car anyway after researching myself.

 

H.

[Kilps]

...its gotta be a data input error if everything looks ok...

 

 

Not sure how likely this is, but if you put 36,000 at September 2008 rather than September 2009, it fits the rest of the mileage pretty much perfectly (if I've done my sums right!).

 

I reckon someone at the National Mileage Register has fat fingers and typed 2009 instead of 2008.

 

The only thing about this is that I would have assumed, if this was the case, that when this data was input in/around September 2008, their system would have flagged up that they had typed a date that was in the future (September 2009). Maybe not though...

 

EDIT:

 

These are the dates from your first post:

Late 2004 (guessed at September) - Car new

2004/5 - 6,000 - First service (ignored)

2004/5 - 13,000 - Second service (ignored)

Feb 2009 - 39,500 - MOT

Aug 2009 - 45,800 - Bought from dealer by third owner

**Sep 2009 - 36,000 - HPI Check**

Feb 2010 - 50,000 - MOT

Feb 2011 - 58,000 - MOT

May 2011 - 61,121 - Mr & Mrs H go to see car

 

I ignored the first two service dates as there wasn't a month to tie them to.

 

Here's a graph for your viewing pleasure...

 

 

As I said above... everything fits a lot better if you assume that '36,000 miles' is a year ahead of itself.

 

 

There is a slim possibility that I have too much time on my hands.

[Chris Wilson]

You are potentially buying a car with incomplete, and thus it's purely conjecture, service history and mileage. You obviously like the car to have gone so far trying to establish its genuine mileage. Come to part ex it a dealer will just say "mileage and history partly unknown". Buy it like a dealer would, bid `em low... Very low.

[bobapple]

So he did roughly 14,000 miles between 2009 Sep and 2010 feb . Thats a average years driving in 6 months.

[Abz]

 

Not sure how likely this is, but if you put 36,000 at September 2008 rather than September 2009, it fits the rest of the mileage pretty much perfectly (if I've done my sums right!).

 

I reckon someone at the National Mileage Register has fat fingers and typed 2009 instead of 2008.

 

The only thing about this is that I would have assumed, if this was the case, that when this data was input in/around September 2008, their system would have flagged up that they had typed a date that was in the future (September 2009). Maybe not though...

 

EDIT:

 

These are the dates from your first post:

Late 2004 (guessed at September) - Car new

2004/5 - 6,000 - First service (ignored)

2004/5 - 13,000 - Second service (ignored)

Feb 2009 - 39,500 - MOT

Aug 2009 - 45,800 - Bought from dealer by third owner

**Sep 2009 - 36,000 - HPI Check**

Feb 2010 - 50,000 - MOT

Feb 2011 - 58,000 - MOT

May 2011 - 61,121 - Mr & Mrs H go to see car

 

I ignored the first two service dates as there wasn't a month to tie them to.

 

Here's a graph for your viewing pleasure...

 

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c70/m4tt101/Other/MrsHMilesGraph.jpg

 

As I said above... everything fits a lot better if you assume that '36,000 miles' is a year ahead of itself.

 

 

There is a slim possibility that I have too much time on my hands.

 

You have way too much time on your hands!

[Havard]

 

Not sure how likely this is, but if you put 36,000 at September 2008 rather than September 2009, it fits the rest of the mileage pretty much perfectly (if I've done my sums right!).

 

I reckon someone at the National Mileage Register has fat fingers and typed 2009 instead of 2008.

 

The only thing about this is that I would have assumed, if this was the case, that when this data was input in/around September 2008, their system would have flagged up that they had typed a date that was in the future (September 2009). Maybe not though...

 

EDIT:

 

These are the dates from your first post:

Late 2004 (guessed at September) - Car new

2004/5 - 6,000 - First service (ignored)

2004/5 - 13,000 - Second service (ignored)

Feb 2009 - 39,500 - MOT

Aug 2009 - 45,800 - Bought from dealer by third owner

**Sep 2009 - 36,000 - HPI Check**

Feb 2010 - 50,000 - MOT

Feb 2011 - 58,000 - MOT

May 2011 - 61,121 - Mr & Mrs H go to see car

 

I ignored the first two service dates as there wasn't a month to tie them to.

 

Here's a graph for your viewing pleasure...

 

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c70/m4tt101/Other/MrsHMilesGraph.jpg

 

As I said above... everything fits a lot better if you assume that '36,000 miles' is a year ahead of itself.

 

 

There is a slim possibility that I have too much time on my hands.

 

That is impressive Matt. We also know that the cars first MOT in September 2007 has 18,365 miles at three years old and was therefore very low mileage. It looks as if the second keeper put around 12/13K miles per year on it and then the guy who is selling it to us has had it from 46K onwards.

 

You are potentially buying a car with incomplete, and thus it's purely conjecture, service history and mileage. You obviously like the car to have gone so far trying to establish its genuine mileage. Come to part ex it a dealer will just say "mileage and history partly unknown". Buy it like a dealer would, bid `em low... Very low.

 

That's the problem. The seller feels that it is a straight car, we think it's a straight car and if we can overcome this bit of red tape then we will be happy. The car was up for £4300 and he's agreed £4000. After looking at cars of a similar age and mileage this car is about £600 cheaper than others. I today looked at a car that had £80K, genuine mileage, all receipts and MOTS but the car was an absolute pile of shite. This car was up for £500 more than the deal I have done. We also looked at a car in midweek locally, 38K on the clock and hardly any history except the last MOT. This car had obviously been clocked as the gear stick looked like a blind cobblers thumb.

 

We are really keen on the car we have put a deposit on as I doubt I will find a 54 plate Black Celica with 61K miles for less than £4K.

 

Isn't the auto industry frustrating?

 

H.

 

So he did roughly 14,000 miles between 2009 Sep and 2010 feb . Thats a average years driving in 6 months.

 

Not out of the realms of possibility though is it?

[marc_p]

 

Not sure how likely this is, but if you put 36,000 at September 2008 rather than September 2009, it fits the rest of the mileage pretty much perfectly (if I've done my sums right!).

 

I reckon someone at the National Mileage Register has fat fingers and typed 2009 instead of 2008.

 

The only thing about this is that I would have assumed, if this was the case, that when this data was input in/around September 2008, their system would have flagged up that they had typed a date that was in the future (September 2009). Maybe not though...

 

EDIT:

 

These are the dates from your first post:

Late 2004 (guessed at September) - Car new

2004/5 - 6,000 - First service (ignored)

2004/5 - 13,000 - Second service (ignored)

Feb 2009 - 39,500 - MOT

Aug 2009 - 45,800 - Bought from dealer by third owner

**Sep 2009 - 36,000 - HPI Check**

Feb 2010 - 50,000 - MOT

Feb 2011 - 58,000 - MOT

May 2011 - 61,121 - Mr & Mrs H go to see car

 

I ignored the first two service dates as there wasn't a month to tie them to.

 

Here's a graph for your viewing pleasure...

 

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c70/m4tt101/Other/MrsHMilesGraph.jpg

 

As I said above... everything fits a lot better if you assume that '36,000 miles' is a year ahead of itself.

 

 

There is a slim possibility that I have too much time on my hands.

 

That's ace

 

On another note, in my opinion, the car is genuine, there is f-ups all the time on HPI registers due to wrongly imputted data.

[Havard]

Update:

 

Rang Toyota this morning and due to the age of the car they cannot tell when the car was last serviced with them as their system only goes back to 2008. The car was out of warrantly in 2005 so the trail ends there. Tried to ring the garage that sold the car in 2009 and they seem to not be trading anymore or moved.

 

The current owner has called me and said that he spoke the National Mileage and they have accepted that a mistake may have taken place. Mrs H rang the dealer who sold the car in 2009 and he admits that he doesn't always sheck the correct mileage when doing HPI checks as he is more bothered about write offs and outstanding finance etc. Mrs H also rang the NMR and they are getting the info faxed to them and have said that if there is evidence of a mistake they will correct it.

 

Hopefully all will be ok.

 

H.

[Havard]

All sorted. I now have a new HPI check with no adverse information stated against the vehicle. We will bo off to collect it in the next few days.

 

H.

[Abz]

All sorted. I now have a new HPI check with no adverse information stated against the vehicle. We will bo off to collect it in the next few days.

 

H.

Result, well done for getting it sorted as most people wouldn't have!

 

Goes to show you can't always rely on the people you need to rely on!

[Havard]

Result, well done for getting it sorted as most people wouldn't have!

 

Goes to show you can't always rely on the people you need to rely on!

 

Cheers Abz.

 

It was a nice car and a shame that it had a black mark against it's name. The easiest thing for me to do on Saturday was to walk away and try and find another car with the same condition and mileage. This would not be easy judging by two of the three I have viewed in the last week. A few phone calls and the information from the current keeper has changed everything. I am kind of surprised how easy it was to make HPi and the NMR to see sense. The NMR admitted that a lot of the information they recieve is "guess work"...

 

Personally I think the system is a bit of a joke. You could just ring up the NMR and claim you were looking at a car, make up the mileage and cock up the car on a future HPI check. It's a great way of getting a better deal or upsetting your enemies who have their car up for sale.

 

H.