Tyson Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 I have a saxo diesel that has a cold starting issue. When starting the engine you have to hold the accelerator down after about 15 seconds it will judder as if going to start and it takes about 30 seconds to eventually start. It then misfires and sometimes acts like it might cut out and it has sometimes. When it starts while holding the accelerator down I get a cloud of blue smoke. Once warm the engine will start no problem and there is no smoke at all. I know blue smoker is burning oil but why is it struggling to start, Can anyone help me. Oh forgot to mention I have given it a full service (new oil, oil filter, fuel filter, air filter and glow plugs), it has a new alternator and a new battery. I have also used redex injector cleaner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan294 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Possibly pump timing maybe? The blue smoke will be all the diesel that is firing into the cylinders whilst trying to start, its coming out blue as its unburnt i would think? Have you tried pre-heating it a few times before starting, say letting the glow plugs heat 2 or 3 times? That might help. My boss had a Xantia once that had a faulty glow plug control relay, wouldn't always fire up the glow plugs when cold. If you let the heater plug light go off, wait and listen for a click about 5 seconds or so after the light has gone out, thats the relay going off. Is the glow plug light actually coming on? I'm no mechanic though! Just experienced stuff like this before Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham S Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Is it a 1.5d? Pretty sure they have a wax stat. Its kind of a choke thing, when it warms up it lets a cable move. When it cools it pulls it back on for cold starting... Quite common too.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 Possibly pump timing maybe? The blue smoke will be all the diesel that is firing into the cylinders whilst trying to start, its coming out blue as its unburnt i would think? Have you tried pre-heating it a few times before starting, say letting the glow plugs heat 2 or 3 times? That might help. My boss had a Xantia once that had a faulty glow plug control relay, wouldn't always fire up the glow plugs when cold. If you let the heater plug light go off, wait and listen for a click about 5 seconds or so after the light has gone out, thats the relay going off. Is the glow plug light actually coming on? I'm no mechanic though! Just experienced stuff like this before Yes the light comes on, tried the preheat thing a couple of times and it doesn't help. I will check the relay now and let you know. The smoke does smell like diesel now that you mention it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 Is it a 1.5d? Pretty sure they have a wax stat. Its kind of a choke thing, when it warms up it lets a cable move. When it cools it pulls it back on for cold starting... Quite common too.. Any more info like where it is situated and how to fix it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 it does click so I assume its working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham S Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Any more info like where it is situated and how to fix it? If I remember right, its in the water housing at the end of the head, with a cable coming off onto the idle lever on the pump. As the engine coolant heats up, the cable releases and then lowers the idle accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 will have a look tomorrow thanks for the info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 just had a look I can see it but I don't know what I am looking for with it, what would I be checking for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
absz Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 sounds like you have 2/3 glow (heater)plugs not working the smoke you are seeing is due to cold combustion tempertures in the cylinders when cold, the cable mentioned in the water housing is for pump advanced when engine is cold to allow a better idle but that depends if you have a lucas or bosch pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham S Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 You need to check the cable mate. When its cold it should pull the 'throttle lever' on slightly, so it isn't hitting the 'stop' if you know what I mean. When the engine warms up, it should (as wax does!) allow the cable to release and let it back to the stop, lowering the idle back to proper levels. Have you checked the glow plugs again to be sure? To be honest, you don't really need them at this time of year. Have you got anything to be able to test them? Suppsose the simplest way to get an idea is to pull them out and there will be black soot on the end of the plug, which obviously isn't being 'burnt' off. But there are proper test kits, really cheap, that can test them properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 could it be a faulty temperature sensor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 sounds like you have 2/3 glow (heater)plugs not working the smoke you are seeing is due to cold combustion tempertures in the cylinders when cold, the cable mentioned in the water housing is for pump advanced when engine is cold to allow a better idle but that depends if you have a lucas or bosch pump. They are brand new glow plugs and I have a bosch pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 You need to check the cable mate. When its cold it should pull the 'throttle lever' on slightly, so it isn't hitting the 'stop' if you know what I mean. When the engine warms up, it should (as wax does!) allow the cable to release and let it back to the stop, lowering the idle back to proper levels. Have you checked the glow plugs again to be sure? To be honest, you don't really need them at this time of year. Have you got anything to be able to test them? Suppsose the simplest way to get an idea is to pull them out and there will be black soot on the end of the plug, which obviously isn't being 'burnt' off. But there are proper test kits, really cheap, that can test them properly. They are new glow plugs as per first post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 Forgot to mention there is a mystery box coming off the glow plug relay loom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 I have had a look and my cooling fan never comes on and all the fuses are fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 On the Isuzu engine of this generation used in the small vauxhall diesels, the valve seats sink into the head in time causing the gap to close up and the valves leak very slightly when cold. It maybe the same with the Citreon engine and worth checking the valve clearance when cold, normally the exhaust. If you cant get a feeler gauge in the gap then thats the problem, on the 1.5 and 1.7 Isuzus, it causes bad cold starting and loads of people dive straight in and change the glow plugs and then find it just needs a tappet re-shim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson Posted May 15, 2011 Author Share Posted May 15, 2011 Where would I get shims from if it need them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham S Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Is the 1.5d lump not hydraulic shims? Can't be 100% as it's been a while since I last did one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham S Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I have had a look and my cooling fan never comes on and all the fuses are fine These things take forever to get up to temp... Does the gauge actually move up past the normal driving position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson Posted May 15, 2011 Author Share Posted May 15, 2011 These things take forever to get up to temp... Does the gauge actually move up past the normal driving position? no it doesn't, its one of the earlier ones and just has a light if it gets too hot. The light does work as it self illuminates on start up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham S Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Ah, these things have different meanings, the oil and temp light together means one thing and the temp light on its own means another! One means its overheating and the other means something different! Anyways, have a quick read through this, just found it and gives you a few things to try http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=57865 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson Posted May 15, 2011 Author Share Posted May 15, 2011 Firstly before checking the valve clearances I am going to get the fuel leak sorted as I think air is getting into the fuel. But sourcing the part I need is proving to be impossible !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson Posted May 15, 2011 Author Share Posted May 15, 2011 So things to check: Air in fuel System Valve clearances Temp sensor Glow plug relay Fast idle cable Low Compression Faulty injectors Fuel pump timing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Is the 1.5d lump not hydraulic shims? Can't be 100% as it's been a while since I last did one. Not sure on the Saxo. I was basing it on my dealings with the Isuzu and VX engines that are of the same generation, if its hydraulic then dismiss what i have suggested. Take the feed to the filter housing off and dunk the pipe in a bottle of diesel to make sure you have not got air getting in. You will need to bleed/purge it first, either by using the primer if it has one or cranking the engine. I guess if you have to use the cranking method to purge, then you will need to purge and then leave it to cool right down and try again before you know if you have found the problem. Checking the glow plugs and getting them out of the picture is an easy 5 minute task, first check they are getting voltage, then assuming they are disconnect them one at a time and check for a very low impedance (less than .5 ohm) on each one, use a basic multimeter for both of these checks. Once you have ruled the heaters out look at the valve clearances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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