Guest ryder Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Hi guys great forum this along with the clubN/At has given me so much advice on my n/at conversion now i have a couple of questions.. i am currently carless and now i fancy a supra. Having owned a Rx7 and 200sx i fancy something with a bit more grunt and tunability (up to 700 horses eventually) I will be going for a 3.0 n/a and doing a turbo conversion with the xs power kit. I understand the risks involved with this kit but the turbo will be used as a Starter Tubby for me and will only need to see me through until September. Have i missed anything out from the list below? I will be tuning it myself with a SAFC (again until sept until i can afford an aem ems). xs power kit & intercooler pipework Downpipe WITH flex seeing as XS power do not supply the flexi. oil feed and return kit Apexi SAFC AEM AFR gauge EGT, Boost and Water Temp Gauges Turbo Timer & Boost Controller Large Hose for the turbo drain line. What problems have you other n/a t guys run into that i could prepare for? Also is there anything i am missing that i really need to get the car running somewhat reliably? Finally is the gearbox... From what i have read i have a choice of the n/a 5 speed manual, r154 or the Getrag 6 speed. I will not have the funds for the getrag for a while so which manual box would be advised for my 'stage 2' tune in sept (450-500bhp)? and what would be needed for the conversion onto a Mkiv? Thanks alot guys i have researched for hours on this and these are my only questions i need solid answers for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanisLupus Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 I don't think that a Stock NA Block will hold anything near 700BHP. As far as i remember 400 is the absolute maximum without tearing it apart and fitting new Pistons etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ryder Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 (edited) Thanks for the speedy reply. I understand about the block i will be rebuilding it with TT pistons and a thicker head gasket to be lowering the compression ratio when i get to that point and then looking for more power. However at the moment i will be focusing on nothing more than 450-500 bhp this year (with supporting mods of course). But first off i would like to get it running on low boost.. Explaining my above question and i have seen many figures above 600bhp on standard N/A block with thicker head gasket to higher the compression ratio also correct timing via a good EMS. Thanks again Edited May 9, 2011 by ryder (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 If you're ultimate goal is 700hp, then I would start with a 2JZ-GTE TT Supra, in the long run it'll be far more straight forward and cheaper. For the price it is going to cost you to do a 'reliable' NA-T conversion - I don't count the XS Power kit as many of the parts in the kit are not fit for purpose - you could pick up a decent TT, you'll achieve similar power and have a better basis for your long term tuning goals. The NA 5spd will not cope with 450-500hp, many have spat the dummy out at BPU levels (380-400hp), you'd need an R154 or Getrag 6spd. xs power kit & intercooler pipework - I would buy a kit that in terms of quality is fit for purpose, such as the Boostlogic or Powerhouse Racing kits. Apexi SAFC - you really need a standalone ECU + sensors + harnesses + mapping Wastegate - the XS Power ones often fail. Clutch Fuel pump Fuel injectors Fuel filter Spark Plugs - I would also budget for new plug leads, rotor arm and distributor cap Radiator - I would budget for a new one, increasing the power often highlights any worn ancillary parts. BOV & flange - you can run without just highlighting the option. Exhaust? Oil Cooler Oil Filter Oil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminator Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Totally agree with both Nic's posts;), forget N/A T and get a TT engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanisLupus Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 ... and i have seen many figures above 600bhp on standard N/A block with thicker head gasket to higher the compression ratio also correct timing via a good EMS. Thanks again Seeing figures and having a reliable engine are two different worlds. You can run a Stock 2JZ-GTE @ 900+ bhp but how long will it last? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Completely agree with Nic here, if you're just starting out in the Supra world and are looking for big power it will be considerably cheaper long term to buy a TT 6spd to begin with. Out of the box with BPU mods you are already at the same power levels most NA-T's struggle to get reliably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ryder Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 (edited) If you're ultimate goal is 700hp, then I would start with a 2JZ-GTE TT Supra, in the long run it'll be far more straight forward and cheaper. For the price it is going to cost you to do a 'reliable' NA-T conversion - I don't count the XS Power kit as many of the parts in the kit are not fit for purpose - you could pick up a decent TT, you'll achieve similar power and have a better basis for your long term tuning goals. The NA 5spd will not cope with 450-500hp, many have spat the dummy out at BPU levels (380-400hp), you'd need an R154 or Getrag 6spd. xs power kit & intercooler pipework - I would buy a kit that in terms of quality is fit for purpose, such as the Boostlogic or Powerhouse Racing kits. Apexi SAFC - you really need a standalone ECU + sensors + harnesses + mapping Wastegate - the XS Power ones often fail. Clutch Fuel pump Fuel injectors Fuel filter Spark Plugs - I would also budget for new plug leads, rotor arm and distributor cap Radiator - I would budget for a new one, increasing the power often highlights any worn ancillary parts. BOV & flange - you can run without just highlighting the option. Exhaust? Oil Cooler Oil Filter Oil Brilliant reply just what i was looking for Nic. I will say that I am only trying to get the conversion completed and running good for a couple of months (Sept time) on low boost (6-8psi) then i will be stripping the XS powerkit and replacing all parts with tested products and supporting bolt on mods and engine mods to then take me to the 450-500 mark. Also the 700 figure is way out there i have never had 500 bhp before so that might be fine for me. Who knows. I totally agree with the GTE conversion but i havent got the 6.5k for a twinturbo supra nor the cash to buy the full engine and single turbo kit. I also agree on the Boostlogic kit but its not financially viable at present. The wastegate is a good point i have read this so a Tial wastegate will be added to the list From what i have read the standard fuel system should be fine for low boost so will be fine until i get the AEM EMS Clutch, Exhaust, BOV and service items are already accounted for. The safc should be fine for my running in requirements (300bhp) then off to get the AEM EMS later in the year. i will buy it off ebay and then sell it with all of the other parts i will be using so i will not be loosing out on much cash considering wear and tear. I had not taken into account the rad nor oil cooler so they are on the parts list. Also r154 is the way i will go for the gears. great forum Edited May 9, 2011 by ryder (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ryder Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Seeing figures and having a reliable engine are two different worlds. You can run a Stock 2JZ-GTE @ 900+ bhp but how long will it last? Yes i understand that!! Standard block + Lots of HP = Loss Of reliability if not destruction lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Problem is, once you add all the cost of that up (and you've hit an easy additional £4-5k with what you mentioned), you're still going to have a compromised setup and still "only" around 400-450bhp. The price difference between an NA 5spd and TT 6spd is smaller than the amount you're going to spend and you're going to have a FAR better starting point with the 6spd (much stronger box, clutch, diff, prop; ABS as standard, GTE engine, etc). We've seen dozens of NA-T's on here over the years and only a tiny handful ever end up delivering half decent power with any sign of reliability (I can think of only 3 actually, 2 of which were £8k+ conversions). The NA-T forum I find very misleading and often just plain incorrect. Edit: I'm not saying you should dismiss the NA-T, just make sure you are 100% certain you're prepared for what you're getting yourself into first. There's only two items on the XS kit worth keeping: The manifold and the wastegate (both of which have known issues), everything else is garbage. If you want a trouble free conversion go for the Whifbitz kit. On my old XS power kit, none of it remains now, every single component failed. I wouldn't even recommend them to an enemy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Mitchell Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 best option available is to go with one of the whiffbits na-t kits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abz Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 I'd recommend you save up for a bit longer and then as suggust go with the TT engine from start. Though if you are not looking for a 700bhp goal, and happy with 350-400bhp then by all means try the NA-T. I spent the weekend with Craig in France (Dragonball Run) and his one was superb! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Brilliant reply just what i was looking for Nic. I will say that I am only trying to get the conversion completed and running good for a couple of months (Sept time) on low boost then i will be stripping the XS powerkit and replacing all parts with tested products and supporting bolt on mods and engine mods to then take me to the 450-500 mark. I hope I don't come across as condescending here but if I was you I would really rethink your plans, doing an NA-T on a tight budget by buying cheap parts and cutting corners (ECU, fueling, etc.) is just going to end in tears and leave you at best with a car that is unreliable. If you are going to only run the XS Power kit for a few months I wouldn't even bother, I'd either buy an NA to run around in then sell and buy a TT when you can afford or save up longer and buy a TT. If you can't stretch to a manual TT then you may want to consider an auto TT as they tend to be a fair bit cheaper. Given the choice I'd prefer a manual TT, but if the choice was between a cheap (bodged ) manual NA-T or an auto TT, it would DEFINITELY be the auto TT. The autobox is very good and there are many auto converts on here. You could always fit an R154 or 6spd manual box at a later date if you prefer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Problem is, once you add all the cost of that up (and you've hit an easy additional £4-5k with what you mentioned), you're still going to have a compromised setup and still "only" around 400-450bhp. The price difference between an NA 5spd and TT 6spd is smaller than the amount you're going to spend and you're going to have a FAR better starting point with the 6spd (much stronger box, clutch, diff, prop; ABS as standard, GTE engine, etc). The NA-T forum I find very misleading and often just plain incorrect. Completely agree, it makes it all sound so easy, throw on a cheap kit, fudge the fueling with an SAFC and hey presto 100's of fit and health thoroughbreds of power. Edit: I'm not saying you should dismiss the NA-T, just make sure you are 100% certain you're prepared for what you're getting yourself into first. Agree, if an NA-T is what you want then great but do it properly, do a full conversion (fueling, ECU, all supporting ancillaries, etc.) don't cut corners and use good quality parts, but don't expect it to be cheap though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ryder Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 The 700bhp is out the window then. But i shall still continue down the n/a t route and see how much i can get from it, from what you have told me i will lower my expectations to the 500 mark and work to get that running reliable and i am sure that will be fine for me! But i will be using the boost logic kit as it is of a much better quality and an AEM EMS i will just have to do a few more jobs until i can get it all. Thanks guys very sound advice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 If you're set on the NA-T option aside from the kit side of things, make sure that when you purchase the NA donor you get one with ABS and a limited slip diff. Do not get one without ABS, it's incredibly difficult and expensive to retrofit. ABS is important not only for the brakes, but also for the traction control if you choose to fit a proper aftermarket one (or get a standalone ECU). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Wait and save for a TT, you are wasting money buying an N/A to convert with schonky Chinese bits, it will cost a fortune to do right, and still no cooling oil squirters in the block, and an N/A head. You can pick up auto TT's for less than 4K if you have cash and will travel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Is the NA head a big disadvantage for a single turbo setup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dnk Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Wait and save for a TT, you are wasting money buying an N/A to convert with schonky Chinese bits, it will cost a fortune to do right, and still no cooling oil squirters in the block, and an N/A head. Wise words Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Get a TT and BPU it, that's enough for most people, especially if you have never driven a RWD 400hp car before Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminator Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 I would seriously recommend going for an Auto TT, mine was a BPU auto TT for 8 years before I went for a single and six speed conversion. The auto box is fantastic and will easily be a better accelerating car than a 6 speed of the same power on the road, unless the six speed driver is amazing. You can pick up Auto TT's very cheaply. Everything you need for up to mid fives is already there on the car, as has already been mentioned, so will save you £'s. Get a good SMIC and you wont need to spend your cash a rad or deviate from or obstruct Toyota's excellent cooling air flow. You say you have made decision, but what happens if you still hanker after 700bhp, which believe me you probably will? If you start out with a TT, you can just improve upon what you have already done, no way can you do that with an NAT. Given the price difference between an NA and an Auto TT, I know which way I would go. However if you go with the NAT, I wish you ever success with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Is the NA head a big disadvantage for a single turbo setup? Limited choice of turbo manifolds, the stock wrap over small TB intake manifold, and possibly less thermally able valves. Not sure if the TT valves and N/A valves are different, I *think* they are though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Not sure if the TT valves and N/A valves are different, I *think* they are though. The valve diameters are the same according to link below, not sure if they differ in design, I suppose the EPC could confirm if both engines share the same valve part number or not. http://www.turbosupras.com/pages/en/pages/specifications/JZA80/jza80.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 I always thought the porting was supposed to be a little more free flowing in the NA head, in particular the exhaust ports as they're not as badly angled in towards each other (as they are in the TT head to meet with the turbo manifold). Points taken on the naff "up and over" intake manifold but I have spotted a nice cast exhaust manifold: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TOYOMOTO-2JZ-GE-TURBO-MANIFOLD-T3-T4-IS300-GS300-SUPRA-/120721022302?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c1b889d5e Or a stainless one that would suit an internally gated turbo: http://www.treadstoneperformance.com/product.phtml?p=1865&cat_key=52&prodname=Lexus+IS300+Turbo+Manifold%2C+Supra+2JZ-GE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Brilliant reply just what i was looking for Nic. I will say that I am only trying to get the conversion completed and running good for a couple of months (Sept time) on low boost (6-8psi) then i will be stripping the XS powerkit and replacing all parts with tested products and supporting bolt on mods and engine mods to then take me to the 450-500 mark. Also the 700 figure is way out there i have never had 500 bhp before so that might be fine for me. Who knows. I totally agree with the GTE conversion but i havent got the 6.5k for a twinturbo supra nor the cash to buy the full engine and single turbo kit. I also agree on the Boostlogic kit but its not financially viable at present. The wastegate is a good point i have read this so a Tial wastegate will be added to the list From what i have read the standard fuel system should be fine for low boost so will be fine until i get the AEM EMS Clutch, Exhaust, BOV and service items are already accounted for. The safc should be fine for my running in requirements (300bhp) then off to get the AEM EMS later in the year. i will buy it off ebay and then sell it with all of the other parts i will be using so i will not be loosing out on much cash considering wear and tear. I had not taken into account the rad nor oil cooler so they are on the parts list. Also r154 is the way i will go for the gears. great forum I have a TT that is a lot less than 6.5K but it is an auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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