Dumbbell Exercises - recommendations wanted

[Geo]

Congratulations on your new personal best

 

Suppose it beats you so im happy

[Geo]

I can't get my head round that. Say there was a guy and he had a double in an alternate reality. We will call the guy in reality one Guy1 and the guy in the alternate Guy2.

 

Guy1 uses 10kg dumbells only. Every 2nd day he curls the weights till he is exhausted, no reps and no sets.

 

Means he would be lifting fresh air if no reps or sets were involved.

 

Guy2 uses a multitude of weights. Every 2nd day he curls the heaviest weight he can for 3 sets of 10. If he hasn't worked his arms to exhaustion then the next time he works out he ups the weight.

 

After 10 years of doing this, and having fantastic diets etc, would I be right in saying that, in your opinion, both guys would have exactly the same muscle size and exactly the same strength? Even though Guy1 has only ever lifted 10kg and Guy2 has probably worked up to 50kg per arm?

 

That just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

 

 

Scott,

 

As far as I'm aware, the usual thinking from sports scientists goes like this: motor units are recruited in size order. For lower weights, you only recruit the smaller slow-twitch units. When you up the weight, the bigger fast-twitch units are recruited. These are really only needed for near maximal efforts.

 

So the question is, can you ever get to the big units by using a relatively light weight and exhausting all the little motor units first? I presume this is the thinking behind time-under-tension, which says that the size of the load doesn't matter - you just need to keep the muscle under tension (load) until its exhausted. Or do you need to use heavy weights?

 

It's a bit of a debate. My own view is that you don't need significant amounts of time under tension to build muscle. For example, olympic lifters try to reduce the time under tension to the absolute minimum - it's all explosive lifts at very low reps. Yet over the years they build absolutely colossal thighs. And they don't train to exhaustion, either.

 

Specifically for building muscle, putting the muscle under tension during the eccentric (lowering) part of the movement can create more microfibril damage, which promotes hypertrohy, but it doesn't do much for strength.

 

In my opinion, in your scenario, Guy 1 will have arms like a marathon runner and Guy 2 will have increased in size and strength. Only a genetic freak is going to get to 50kg DB curls, though. And he would have done better on 5 X 5.

 

That was pretty much my thinking, although without the technical explanation behind it.... more of a hunch. The reason I questioned it using that scenario was I said earlier to Ian if he wants to keep lean and healthy muscle to use the low weights with higher reps, if he wants to build the muscle keep the reps fairly low while upping the weight as much as possible. Geo said that it wouldn't make any difference, according to your explanation it does make a difference, along the lines I thought it would.

 

Also, I looked up the world record for the bicep curl in order to come up with my 50kg figure

 

I have to say I'm not hugely confident about my view. I used the example of olympic weightlifters, but what about professional cyclists? There you've got training that is totally opposite. It involves really low loads (because they can do thousands of "reps"), but huge amounts of time under tension. Yet they have ginormous thighs too.

 

Getting a bit off the original discussion, but interesting.

 

Great discussion going on here.

 

Out of the scenario with the two guys Scott, i believe that both would benefit from both ways TBH. Guy1 is curling until failure EOD, which means his muscles are going to the limit over a set period of time until he fails. Guy2 is doing the same but he will fail quicker as he is lifting more weight. So still he is working his muscle to failure. Now one guy would come out on top, DUE to one having superior Genetics(you cant change that) Other than that both would have built muscle on there selected worked muscle group.

 

I still believe that you don't need a heavy weight to build muscle, like i said to matt they are either under tension or relaxed no in between. If you take for instance benching say 100kg for 8 reps, your chest is under tension for the 8 reps. Now if you drop the weight to say 15kg(bench) then do negative benching(you bench up) then slow as you possibly can bring the weight down to your chest, is just as good a workout. i've done both and TBH i get DOMS doing both ways.

 

What works for one, won't work for another.

[cje001]

Scott,

 

As far as I'm aware, the usual thinking from sports scientists goes like this: motor units are recruited in size order. For lower weights, you only recruit the smaller slow-twitch units. When you up the weight, the bigger fast-twitch units are recruited. These are really only needed for near maximal efforts.

 

So the question is, can you ever get to the big units by using a relatively light weight and exhausting all the little motor units first? I presume this is the thinking behind time-under-tension, which says that the size of the load doesn't matter - you just need to keep the muscle under tension (load) until its exhausted. Or do you need to use heavy weights?

 

It's a bit of a debate. My own view is that you don't need significant amounts of time under tension to build muscle. For example, olympic lifters try to reduce the time under tension to the absolute minimum - it's all explosive lifts at very low reps. Yet over the years they build absolutely colossal thighs. And they don't train to exhaustion, either.

 

Specifically for building muscle, putting the muscle under tension during the eccentric (lowering) part of the movement can create more microfibril damage, which promotes hypertrohy, but it doesn't do much for strength.

 

In my opinion, in your scenario, Guy 1 will have arms like a marathon runner and Guy 2 will have increased in size and strength. Only a genetic freak is going to get to 50kg DB curls, though. And he would have done better on 5 X 5.

 

Strength - lots of sets, very low reps, very heavy weights

 

Size and Strength in proportion - medium sets, 6-10 reps (varied with different weights), medium to heavy weights

 

Toning - medium/high sets, 12-15 reps, light to medium weights

 

As a rule of thumb this is the ethos i`ve adopted to. There is no fine line and everyone is different.

 

I love the 5*5 routine, heavy weight, 5sets for 5 reps, 1 1/2 min rest between each set.

 

Also, routine is key, you will be limited to the exercises you can do without a bench and barbell.... if you keep training you WILL buy one

 

Feel free to ask anything as i`ve pretty much experienced everything in terms of the gym

[cje001]

Oh and dont always think you need to rep out to failure!!!

 

Sometimes this is needed yes but not always, and read up on negative reps, slowly pushing the bar/dumbell up and then working against it on the way down to bring it down as slowly as possible!

 

Its all about SHOCKING your body, doing different things, changing the routine every 6-8 weeks, different exercises, rep patterns, weight ranges etc.

 

If your body gets used to it then it wont get broken down and thus wont grow.

 

FOOD is key as well.... This discussion can go on and on...

[AlliRR]

Ian w, ive a wieder sit up bench you can have foc if you want. I used to use it for sitting on doing curls, dips etc... It flat packs so if your limited space its pretty handy.

[Thorin]

P.s this is for MattH.

 

I was benching 10kg tonight bud, so should i go home???

 

Yes, my 1 year old niece can beat you.

[mobius]

after going to the gym for about 5 years was not getting much from it and work (getting up at 330 then doing a 12 hour + shift usually buggers you up) /family commitments got in the way to getting to the gym regularly so got a set of Dumbells.

 

was looking for something that would do both muscle build and cardio found this,

Based on one of the training programmes for the actors in Spartacus blood and sand. Takes about an hour to do, and you are drenched at the end of it.

 

Talking of which just moved house and not done it in weeks sso will punishing myself with it today

[Thorin]

As far as finding out different exercises to do, I use this app on my phone which is pretty good for finding different ones to do. http://www.jefit.com/exercises/

[Matt H]

I still believe that you don't need a heavy weight to build muscle, like i said to matt they are either under tension or relaxed no in between. If you take for instance benching say 100kg for 8 reps, your chest is under tension for the 8 reps. Now if you drop the weight to say 15kg(bench) then do negative benching(you bench up) then slow as you possibly can bring the weight down to your chest, is just as good a workout. i've done both and TBH i get DOMS doing both ways.

 

Yes there is an inbetween (obviously), there's entites in your muscle which are 'on' and 'off', but you muscle as a whole has the ability to be inbetween, which is why I believe that if your muscle is not under heavy strain, you won't be exercising it fully. Without lifting heavy weights, you won't trigger myofibrillar hypertrophy, which is the process that causes bulking up. I do believe there is benifit in lifting leight weights in a controlled and 'heavily' exerting manor however. I've been saying that from the start, but perhaps not very well.

[Supe]

Bit late, as phone batt died yesterday...

 

Best analogy for this could be... Think male and female.. If both had "fantastic" diets...(which is difficult to say exactly as the two goals are totally diff.) and girl pumps out on her 10kg weights and the male pumps his incremental weights... The guy will have more strength. Because of hormone levels!

 

Its it's 70% diet, 20% training and 10% GENETICS/HORMONES.

(the example ok for twins- same genetical make-up) but in real terms. Very unlikely. Also the fact tht if u lift a 10kg dumbbell.. vs. A 20kg dumbbell.. The neural response will b much more extensive in a 20kg pump. (analogy -would u be more excited in a 10mph car or 100mph car). The excitatory hormone responses, similar to example of adrenaline rush.. Pumps up the hormones. (hormones play role in strength too)

As certain hormones trigger certain muscles fibres!

Muscle fibres can be fast twitch or slowtwitch . On heavy loads most strength is from slow twitch. Also don't forget body's natural creative actions! If u lift a 10kg u can do faster reps.. And creative is only used in small bouts. Then resynthesised again by combination of processes which involve hormonalneural stimulus response.

 

The part being "to exhaustion means nothing.. As exhastionnis only build up of lactic acid innmuscles which causa it to fatigue.. If th lactic acid not removed quicky.

(hormones even ply a rol in fatigue.)

So being fatigued doesn't mean uv worked out same amounts!

Also most basc part is, say, you do a Lightweight 20min I do a 20min pump.. U burn more calories than I do in (if talking abt exhaustion.. Time will b diff..but tht still doesn't mean same calories burned) So...Intensity does matter.. And weight is itself a factor of intensity!

 

Doing this on the IPhone, so expect Lots of errors!

[Ian W]

Ian w, ive a wieder sit up bench you can have foc if you want. I used to use it for sitting on doing curls, dips etc... It flat packs so if your limited space its pretty handy.

 

Would be much appreciated mate, very generous of you. Will PM you later on re: this.