Jake Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 My 98 VVTi Tiptronic RZS has been misfiring and spluttering at the point in the revs where the second turbo comes online. It started doing this yesterday immediately after I filled the car up with Super Unleaded (97) at one of those small chain petrol stations (I forget what it's called, one of those ones like Q8 or Elf, you know the type) I don't usually buy petrol from those kind of places but I was desperately low on fuel. Anyway, tonight on the motorway I put my foot down and it spluttered at 4000rpm again but I (stupidly) thought to myself "I wonder if it clears above 4k" so I pushed it a bit harder and suddenly there was a massive cloud of smoke behind me. I eased off the gas but there was still a fair bit of smoke coming out behind. I reapplied the gas and the amount of smoke was incredible! The engine was running really rough now. I'm suprised there wasn't a pile up on the motorway. The smoke made all 6 lanes (both carriageways) look worse than the thickest fog you have ever seen. Within 2 mins an unmarked police car was on the scene. He thought the car was actually on fire! So, now the Technical question : What have I blown up, the engine or the turbos, or both? I presume it's the engine at least because over the cam covers there was some oil that had been blown out of the filler cap. The car still starts and ticks over but it's very lumpy and rough sounding, like it's only running on 4 cylinders. It also makes an amazing amount of white smoke even at tickover (it might be light grey smoke if that makes any difference) I'm guessing I've holed/melted a piston or two and that the debis has probably killed my turbos as well. Happy days! So guys, how should I procede from here? What would you do? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUPRALOOPY Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terribleturner Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Can't give any advise Jake but just thought i'd say sorry to hear the news. Hope it doesn't damage the wallet too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Yowie That's bad news. White smoke = coolant, blue smoke = oil. If you are 'lucky' you have blown the head gasket in some fashion that's opening up both oil and coolant galleries. That would explain the oil out of the filler cap (piston pressurising the oil in the cylinder head) and the white smoke (burning coolant in-cylinder). The smoke may be tinted grey by some oil getting into the cylinder as well. It would also explain the rough running as you'd have no compression around the cylinder(s) that the gasket has failed around. If you are unlucky, you've popped a piston or two, that would explain rough running (no compression) but I'd expect a more mechanical noise rather than just an uneven idle. But I don't think that would explain the filler cap venting oil or the white smoke - you'd see blue smoke instead as oil got straight into the cylinder and exited the hot exhaust - a blown piston can't affect coolant flow. I haven't got enough experience of this to say anything better than that, the next step is to get the spark plugs out and see what state they are in. It's going to be a cylinder head off job eventually though, fingers crossed it's a BHG. That would also mean your turbos should be intact too. -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Sounds like a turbo has failed to me. Being a child of the urbo race car era a huge cloud of smoke is very indictive of turbo blow ups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Would that explain the rough running at idle though...? Can't see how it would but I'm ready to learn -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopite Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 again can't help tech wise but sorry to hear that mate correct me if i'm wrong but haven't you had a few issues with the vvti one already (not all techinal issues though)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted June 23, 2005 Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 Thanks for the sympathy guys. Chis, Frankly I'll be over the moon if it turns out to be a BHG but something tells me it's going to be rather more expensive than that. I wonder if the rough running after putting the possibly dodgy petrol in was just a coincidence, what do you chaps reckon? Suppose it was dodgy petrol that caused this blow up. It's not going to be a BHG then, is it? It's the petrol issue that is making me think 'holed piston', does that make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted June 23, 2005 Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 correct me if i'm wrong but haven't you had a few issues with the vvti one already (not all techinal issues though)? No mate, not than I can think of. I've had a long running problem with the power steering on the '93 RZ but the VVTi has been great up till now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopite Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 that must be what i was thinkin of mate! if it is a petrol issue, where do you think you might stand with the company that supplied it? the white VVTi is pretty standard isnt it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Thanks for the sympathy guys. Chis, Frankly I'll be over the moon if it turns out to be a BHG but something tells me it's going to be rather more expensive than that. I wonder if the rough running after putting the possibly dodgy petrol in was just a coincidence, what do you chaps reckon? Suppose it was dodgy petrol that caused this blow up. It's not going to be a BHG then, is it? It's the petrol issue that is making me think 'holed piston', does that make sense? Dunno mate. I know exactly what you are going through, and I know you are thinking over and over all the possible scenarios. I could say, for example, that severe detonation from gammy fuel cause a BHG but you'd have collateral damage from the det as well - piston erosion, bore damage, spark plug damage, maybe a valve... Who knows how much if any of these? I'm not going to reassure you on the BHG front, tbh it's best-case-scenario now, although a blown turbo would be second best I'm not convinced that explains the dodgy tickover. A mangled piston is worst-case, that's £££s, as the cylinder bore will be arseholed as well Yank your plugs and see if they still have electrodes on them. You can also shine a light down the bores, see if anything is obvious (although not an exhaustive test by any stretch, if you can see loose metal in there it's bad news). Dunno what else to say mate - investigative surgery is required, and that means head off, which also means turbos off as well. Shit job, and for a shit reason -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl0s Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 crikey mate. You're staying awfully cool headed considering. Keep us all posted on your progress.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Right the VVTi is a clever bit of gear ...if it was det /leanness/shit fuel the car would have shut it self down on a run( like trac control shutting the throttle) which leads me to think that you're main running gear is OK . I'm with C.Wilson and Chiz on this one and suspect turbos or HG . . I would honestly start with looking at the plugs . IF it does turn out to be a piston or valve even ,a quick comp test will show you this, then I would look to what has caused this IE vac leak ect to make the girl run lean . like I say VVTi's in stock trim are pretty dumb proof..and tend to shut the throttle on any bad behaviour , Is she stock ?....I would start with plugs ..then check the comp ...then do a leak down test on the coolant system ..before coming to any harsh decisions and take it from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted June 23, 2005 Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 Thanks Ian, useful info there. I was thinking about removing the head myself but I was forgetting that I had the turbos-off issue to deal with as well.I don't fancy it, to be honest. Sounds like a turbo has failed to me. Being a child of the urbo race car era a huge cloud of smoke is very indictive of turbo blow ups. The smoke was very white though, Chris. Also the engine was runing very roughly before the blow-up. Please correct me but neither of those things are indicative of turbo failure, are they? crikey mate. You're staying awfully cool headed considering. Ah well, nobody died - it's only money. (I just wish I had some) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Feckin crap news, feel for you chap. I'd be puking by now from stress I reckon. Keep your chin up and try and view it as a chance to upgrade whatever went... hmmmm that wonderfull thing called money though eh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl0s Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Ah well, nobody died - it's only money. (I just wish I had some) at least you have two TT Supras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopite Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 is the RZ runnin without any issues mate? if so, as carl said, at least you've got a spare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted June 23, 2005 Author Share Posted June 23, 2005 Thanks for that Mig. Is she stock ?....I would start with plugs ..then check the comp ...then do a leak down test on the coolant system ..before coming to any harsh decisions and take it from there. She's pretty much stock but has a front decat and is runing a GReddy E01 boost controller at 1.2 bar. In case anyone is thinking the boost controller might have caused sky high EGTs I should point out that the misfire/roughness only started yesterday and was at 4000rpm even on a part throttle (ie Low boost level) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffvalenti Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Sorry to hear this Jake. I thought that all VVTis had a rough period at 3-4000 rpm, mine certainly does, although if you change down, and boot it, it flies If its a piston, you should be able to hear it by listening to the compressions as you turn it over on the starter. Pull the EFI fuses and give it a whirl. You should hear 6 even compressions , something like rer rer rer rer rer rer, rer rer rer rer rer rer, etc. If its rer rer ree rer rer ree or the like, you've got low compression (on 2 cyls in the example) If the 2 ree's are together, chances are its a BHG between 2 cylinders, if they're spaced apart it may be pistons, or valves. Hope it's not too bad for you PS sorry about the compression sounds, I didn't know how else to explain them in text Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Sorry to hear this Jake. I thought that all VVTis had a rough period at 3-4000 rpm, mine certainly does, although if you change down, and boot it, it flies If its a piston, you should be able to hear it by listening to the compressions as you turn it over on the starter. Pull the EFI fuses and give it a whirl. You should hear 6 even compressions , something like rer rer rer rer rer rer, rer rer rer rer rer rer, etc. If its rer rer ree rer rer ree or the like, you've got low compression (on 2 cyls in the example) If the 2 ree's are together, chances are its a BHG between 2 cylinders, if they're spaced apart it may be pistons, or valves. Hope it's not too bad for you PS sorry about the compression sounds, I didn't know how else to explain them in text One way of doing it I suppose ...just borrow a comp tester far far easier and can get you down to the actual cylinders . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted June 24, 2005 Author Share Posted June 24, 2005 "rer rer ree" Thanks mate, that made me laugh as well. I'll give that a try tomorrow. Cheers BTW, mine has never had a rough period from 3 to 4k rpm. It pulls great in that range. Or rather it used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 I feel your pain - I am currently Supraless as my single turbo has decided to go kaputt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffvalenti Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 "rer rer ree" BTW, mine has never had a rough period from 3 to 4k rpm. It pulls great in that range. Or rather it used to. Strange. Mine pulls 'through' that range fine, ie from rest with WOT Sit on the motorway at about 3000 rpm and gently give it a bit of throttle, and it really feels like a flat spot. Give it a bit more and it changes down, pulls like a train, changes up into the next gear and pulls through the 3-4000 rpm range really strong. I just put it down to the turbo change over point, where no turbos were working on light throttle, and when you gave it a bit more throttle, it wasn't boosting enough on the first turbo to pre spool the second one. They're just too complicated for us lesser mortals, Give me a V8 anytime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffvalenti Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 One way of doing it I suppose ...just borrow a comp tester far far easier and can get you down to the actual cylinders . Yeah, you're right Mig. Its just a quick and dirty test to see if its worth taking the plugs out to test the compressions. If they all sound even, your efforts "could" be spent better elsewhere. Of course, unless you've managed to fcuk all 6 pistons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest a71ak Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Jake you've popped a piston or maybe two mate, for sure !! it happened to me many times before ... and I dought it's because of the fuel you added ... it's some thing to do with boost ... the misfiring and spluttering you mensioned is a sign of over boosting .... and when you pushed it a bit harder you detonate it. Check your boost controller vacuum hosses to find the cause !! I can look for a used engine for you from Dubai if you want ... I dont know about duty in UK but here they are cheap it'll cost you arround 1500 Pounds. Good luck mate Ali Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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