dude Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 The I beams should be fine, the billet crank would be cool but if you are going to pay for a billet crank you may as well go stroker and get the matching pistons, the cosworth pistons sound like they will be fine i believe the drift car is getting on for 800hp and Im more than happy to use them, i still rate the CP's, the Mahle's are a totaly diff design, i think I'll wait and see how JP fairs before i reccomend them for over 1000hp, If I was buiding an 800HP motor the billet crank would not overly bother me, the silver car has been on a stock crank and hi power for about 30,000 miles with no probs. Make sure the billet mains are align bored correctly or the motor will fail very quickly, again for 800hp I would not have bothered, definatly get the rotating assembly balanced though and go for all ARP studs and rod bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crouch Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I'm was thinking of having the billet crank custom made due to not being able to find one for sale! also i was told by Mr jagman that stroking the engine would result in guaranteed failure!! That every stroker kit on the market is made with only short sharp drags for the purpose and not good for long duration applications! ( i would like to do track work) and the only person whom had a stroker track car (Mr Whiffin) was having " nothing but problems!" I've just checked it was "H" beam rods i got sorry I'm an ass! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 H beams are even better dude, lol the only failure connected with the strokers I know of is to do with the align boring of the main caps, the stroker cranks are 4340 and hardened and all the mile cars in the states pretty much are running strokers, guess I'll sell both my strokers............................................................................................not, what will be the diff between your billet crank and the stroker, also the strokers are in heavy duty cars and being revved to 10,000rpm running 3 bar, I think the only problem Paul had was an exploding oil pump same as on the BDC drift car which was only 3L and PW uses his car on the track Adam and i will always dissagree on points and this will be one of them, it will depend who builds it but IMO only 800hp is wat OTT for a track car I would stick to 600 with a more stock based internal set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagman Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Horses for courses ,you dont state your intented use just 800 bhp ? Dude and I would differ in thought . Toyota were pioneers in the process of mass produced powder forged rods in the early eighties , they did an immense amount of R + D and made in house , everyone else had to play catch up !! Even today I doubt that Toyota release even a tenth of the R and D that they have , who knows the exact composition of the stock rods ,or stress analysis BUT given a 18 year old engine with poor regular maintenance , furred waterways, unknown oilways , maybe overheated a few times , and the rods with tens of millions of cycles , on high time bearings THEN people strap on the mother of all turbos and bang out 600 bhp with elevated red line - By all things engineering the engines should let go , transforming into a bucket of metal - they dont !!!! Now consider a factory fresh engine , zero time , and you cater for excess water /oil heat and add balance and detonation protection and rod bolts - much labour cost saving drop it in (one day ) - seems fair to me unless there is a good deal such as Dudes ready done If Racing, go Titanium and spend the coin with a racing specialist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crouch Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Mr jagman i hope you don't think that i was being disrespectful or slating your oppinion! i was just pointing out that when i discovered that i may have stock rods (i was under the impresion that they where HKS as the pistons are) that i would like to stroke my engine to reduce the lack of knowledge of my engine and tune by replacing everything with new,At this time you pointed out the toyota r+d then and the lack of it from some after market tuners and i agree totaly! I've always wanted a stroked supra due to the increase in torque and power handling abilities my goal is to build a high power engine but reliability is a must and really the top of my prioritys 800-850hp is the dream but may not be the reality! The turbo i'm after can produce up to 850hp but the mapper/builder will decide the outcome! Mr Dude the crank is not yet decided on if there will be any special features all i know is that Mr Wilson said that i should get a billet crank to run the power i'm after and i go by what the more knowlagable people tell me (jagman,Chris wilson and you etc) The company he told me of apparently used to do cranks for HKS so are supposed to be good at building strong lasting cranks! One question though the crank has not been fully arranged yet so to stroke the engine is it just the crank throw thats increased or is there other things? over bore/sleeving,shorter rods etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Horses for courses ,you dont state your intented use just 800 bhp ? Dude and I would differ in thought . Toyota were pioneers in the process of mass produced powder forged rods in the early eighties , they did an immense amount of R + D and made in house , everyone else had to play catch up !! Even today I doubt that Toyota release even a tenth of the R and D that they have , who knows the exact composition of the stock rods ,or stress analysis BUT given a 18 year old engine with poor regular maintenance , furred waterways, unknown oilways , maybe overheated a few times , and the rods with tens of millions of cycles , on high time bearings THEN people strap on the mother of all turbos and bang out 600 bhp with elevated red line - By all things engineering the engines should let go , transforming into a bucket of metal - they dont !!!! Now consider a factory fresh engine , zero time , and you cater for excess water /oil heat and add balance and detonation protection and rod bolts - much labour cost saving drop it in (one day ) - seems fair to me unless there is a good deal such as Dudes ready done If Racing, go Titanium and spend the coin with a racing specialist IMO only Toyota can have done as much R & D as they want but the billet crank and rods we are talking about are so much stronger due to the material that is irrelevant, there are many many 3.4's in the US being used soley in road cars with no problems, now will a motor running 3 bar fail ????? Will a motor running 10,000rpm fail ???????? Of course they will, you only need 1 tiny thing to happen and the motor is gone, but that competition. Now PW as far as I know has not had many problems with his 3.4 except the oil pump failiure which I would say was down to the thrust washers wearing with the HD clutch and the crank touching the oil pump. The stock block has its limitations brand new or not, if nothing else the fact that it will be revved higher than designed or is wise with the heavy (but good) pistons and rods, the stock main caps too have their limitations, stock is fine for certain applications but there are plenty of stock block failiures documented due to incorrect bearings etc used at the factory, go look on supra forums a whole batch was faulty!!!!!!!! So you end up stripping and checking a new block. Also good as they are the stock rotating assembly can be balanced far more acuratly that MrT does and far better bearings used, thats why I balance and buil our engines myself, if anything goes wrong I know exactly what has gone into that block, can you imagine the arguments that would have been going on last year when I lost 3 engines on the trot, I would have been ready to kill an engine builder but because I had built them all the normal and obvious causes were discounted and I found the new cams were at fault, the 3rd failiure was due to 1 cam bucket from the 2nd failiure which I did not fit !!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 How many miles do people expect to get from a 800-1000bhp street engine that is used hard? I know what i expect, just wonder other peoples thoughts are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Mr jagman i hope you don't think that i was being disrespectful or slating your oppinion! i was just pointing out that when i discovered that i may have stock rods (i was under the impresion that they where HKS as the pistons are) that i would like to stroke my engine to reduce the lack of knowledge of my engine and tune by replacing everything with new,At this time you pointed out the toyota r+d then and the lack of it from some after market tuners and i agree totaly! I've always wanted a stroked supra due to the increase in torque and power handling abilities my goal is to build a high power engine but reliability is a must and really the top of my prioritys 800-850hp is the dream but may not be the reality! The turbo i'm after can produce up to 850hp but the mapper/builder will decide the outcome! Mr Dude the crank is not yet decided on if there will be any special features all i know is that Mr Wilson said that i should get a billet crank to run the power i'm after and i go by what the more knowlagable people tell me (jagman,Chris wilson and you etc) The company he told me of apparently used to do cranks for HKS so are supposed to be good at building strong lasting cranks! One question though the crank has not been fully arranged yet so to stroke the engine is it just the crank throw thats increased or is there other things? over bore/sleeving,shorter rods etc CW is talking no doubt about Farndon, they do make nice cranks we have used them for the Ferrari race car. The 3.4 conversion is done from diff stroke and pin height in the piston, the rods stay the same. As im putting my race engine together I have taken some pics for you. Heres the 3 diff cranks , bottom is the one im using in my race engine, 2nd up is the Brian Crower 3.4 for my spare engine, top is a stock crank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 The 2 diff rods Bottom BC H beams and CP stroker pistons, Top I beam and CP pistons (spare engine) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Billet main caps and ARP main studs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Acl race bearings, they look nothing like ordinary bearings like say Clevite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 How many miles do people expect to get from a 800-1000bhp street engine that is used hard? I know what i expect, just wonder other peoples thoughts are? Talking with Simon today and we are looking at 1 refresh this year, thats rings and bearings and prob oil pump, thats banking on about 8 drag meetings and 1 mile event, project GTS (worlds fastest skyline has the sump removed after every meeting and new bearings etc fitted). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Talking with Simon today and we are looking at 1 refresh this year, thats rings and bearings and prob oil pump, thats banking on about 8 drag meetings and 1 mile event, project GTS (worlds fastest skyline has the sump removed after every meeting and new bearings etc fitted). Lol, rebuild every 8 miles:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Lol, rebuild every 8 miles:D More of a matter of hours than miles dude, bit like a boat !!!!!!! Don't forget it will be on the dyno a lot as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crouch Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 so the stroker kit has pistons that have a crown thats closer to the wrist pin! by the looks of the crank it has larger counter balance sections to offset the longer throw also! it was Farndon yes i'm just waiting on an email about if they can do it and how much it would cost. Mr JamieP i'm going to be using mine on the road and i'm very keen on reliability and i'm hoping that if i go stroker with 800-850hp that it will do 5000miles between refreshes. This of course being road based will not be 5000miles at redline but lets face it i'm not building this for getting a loaf of bread from tesco's quicker!.. know what i mean! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 so the stroker kit has pistons that have a crown thats closer to the wrist pin! by the looks of the crank it has larger counter balance sections to offset the longer throw also! it was Farndon yes i'm just waiting on an email about if they can do it and how much it would cost. Mr JamieP i'm going to be using mine on the road and i'm very keen on reliability and i'm hoping that if i go stroker with 800-850hp that it will do 5000miles between refreshes. This of course being road based will not be 5000miles at redline but lets face it i'm not building this for getting a loaf of bread from tesco's quicker!.. know what i mean! Don't forget, I will be running 3 bar boost, anti lag, launch control with nitrous and nitrous the whole way down the 1/4 or mile and spinning to around 9-10,000rpm. Thats why we will pull the motor to check it mid season. The turbo is going to produce more power than a 4788R and at lower rpm so loads of strain on the bottom end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crouch Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 just looked ACL bearings to order some up does it need any special type for the stroker setup?? also noticed there is different sizes so i take it i'll need to wait till i'm actualy having the parts assembled to know which ones i need? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 No dude stock bearings, you should need stock sizes as the crank should be made to stock sizes, just the material will be different. Of course it all needs plastiguaging to check the clearances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 just looked ACL bearings to order some up does it need any special type for the stroker setup?? also noticed there is different sizes so i take it i'll need to wait till i'm actualy having the parts assembled to know which ones i need? You will struggle to get ACL at the moment. Titan do some nice bearings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crouch Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 The power enterprise ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Yes they are very nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 To be frank a genuine 850 BHP 2JZ will make a dreadful road car engine. It will be laggy, unreliable without expensive and frequent maintenance, and absolutely drink fuel. A much more modest power output run on a small single will be much more enjoyable to use, and probably faster in real terms on normal roads. A GENUINE 500 BHP is still a huge amount of grunt in even something as heavy as a MKIV. Wez on the forum has a set up that is reliable, and has enough go to be very traction limited and more than quick enough, whilst still having plenty of low end power, which is what you need in a road car. But 500 sounds wimpish these days A GENUINE 800 plus BHP will be far more power than the stock drivetrain can effectively handle, too, if you manage to get any traction worth the name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 To be frank a genuine 850 BHP 2JZ will make a dreadful road car engine. It will be laggy, unreliable without expensive and frequent maintenance, and absolutely drink fuel. A much more modest power output run on a small single will be much more enjoyable to use, and probably faster in real terms on normal roads. A GENUINE 500 BHP is still a huge amount of grunt in even something as heavy as a MKIV. Wez on the forum has a set up that is reliable, and has enough go to be very traction limited and more than quick enough, whilst still having plenty of low end power, which is what you need in a road car. But 500 sounds wimpish these days A GENUINE 800 plus BHP will be far more power than the stock drivetrain can effectively handle, too, if you manage to get any traction worth the name. Id love to see you post that on Supraforums Chris:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky49 Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 If your going stroker wouldn't a car with 650-700 with all that extra torque be enough. That's what Lee has chatted with me about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crouch Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 The supra i have i baught from Jurgen and is already 612hp and although is quick after a mere month of ownership i got bored of it and i'm actualy not that impressed with it's power!.. surprising right! My supra runs a gt4088r turbo so i've been told its actually a quite quick turbo to spool! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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