Do you believe in the supernatural? Poll

[Max Headroom]

 

3. People have beliefs in ghosts

4. However, those beliefs are based on a lack of scientific evidence

Therefore: ghosts do not exist

 

.....

 

Or put another way

 

3. People have beliefs in god

4. However, those beliefs are based on a lack of scientific evidence

Therefore: god do not exist

 

 

religion and the supernatural. In one there is no evidence yet it is followed blindly and the other is dismissed

[jagman]

"religion and the supernatural. In one there is no evidence yet it is followed blindly and the other is dismissed "

 

Both are based in storytelling , one a moral tale and the other is the result of not following the moral tale , one cannot be without the other -neither is scientific ,but there is still a human need for both

[tbourner]

If you can accept or better still, understand the concept of infinity, then it all makes perfect sense, I mean, what would you do if you had forever to think about it?

 

You're using the principle of an infinite spectrum of frequency though? With us existing in a finite part of it? Surely ghosts from our section wouldn't exist in another finite part of the spectrum after they die? Isn't that the whole point of the multiverse and M-theory, so that we all exist alongside one another in universes that can be finite or not. Otherwise we might live in 10Hz to 3GHz, the ghosts live in 3GHz to 200GHz, there are other beings in 200GHz to 24EHz, then another from 24EHz to 58YHz, but it must end somewhere, that's not how infinity works.

Unless you say God exists at 0Hz, and we are in positive frequency up to the point where -as you say- it's so fast it's as if it's not vibrating, then maybe there's another realm in negative frequency where our ghosts live, and some people can inverse their brain to see the negatives. That sounds feasible, if it weren't for the fact that your whole frequency=reality concept is mental.

[Tricky-Ricky]

You're using the principle of an infinite spectrum of frequency though? With us existing in a finite part of it? Surely ghosts from our section wouldn't exist in another finite part of the spectrum after they die? Isn't that the whole point of the multiverse and M-theory, so that we all exist alongside one another in universes that can be finite or not. Otherwise we might live in 10Hz to 3GHz, the ghosts live in 3GHz to 200GHz, there are other beings in 200GHz to 24EHz, then another from 24EHz to 58YHz, but it must end somewhere, that's not how infinity works.

Unless you say God exists at 0Hz, and we are in positive frequency up to the point where -as you say- it's so fast it's as if it's not vibrating, then maybe there's another realm in negative frequency where our ghosts live, and some people can inverse their brain to see the negatives. That sounds feasible, if it weren't for the fact that your whole frequency=reality concept is mental.

 

Brings to mind the parallel universe/mutiverse theories, and to me the concept is far more believable than the supernatural, UFOs etc.

[Terminator]

I used to believe in Fairies, Father Christmas, and the Tooth Fairy up to the point when kids at school shared their doubts. Then later in life I challenged religious belief with the on set of logical thinking, as for the supernatural, it went the way of all other forms of make believe. For those that do believe in all the things I have mentioned, I guess it gives them comfort and a way to explain things they don't understand.

[tbourner]

For those that do believe in all the things I have mentioned, I guess it gives them comfort and a way to explain things they don't understand.

 

I think that's the crux, it's either a way to explain things you can't grasp, or it comes from a need for an explanation to things we haven't worked out yet as a society. I'm happy to just say Science hasn't explained that yet, doesn't mean there's some weird force out there controlling it!

[Tricky-Ricky]

Or put another way

 

3. People have beliefs in god

4. However, those beliefs are based on a lack of scientific evidence

Therefore: god do not exist

 

 

religion and the supernatural. In one there is no evidence yet it is followed blindly and the other is dismissed

 

"religion and the supernatural. In one there is no evidence yet it is followed blindly and the other is dismissed "

 

Both are based in storytelling , one a moral tale and the other is the result of not following the moral tale , one cannot be without the other -neither is scientific ,but there is still a human need for both

 

Is it a human disposition to have a need to believe in something greater, or more obscure than ourselves?

 

I guess it comes back to, some people have a need to believe in something,even if its intangible/ethereal, and some have a need to believe in something, only if it can be proved to exist.

 

You then have to ask if its purely a case of what we a capable of proving to exist at the time, after all we thought the world was flat once until we where capable of proving otherwise.

[Morpheus]

Indeed, there are those who know and those who learn from those who know.

 

Then there are those who can't or won't learn how anyone else could know anything that they don't. They can't read properly, that's for sure.

 

Worst still, they think that the media would tell them!

[jagman]

"I guess it comes back to, some people have a need to believe in something,even if its intangible/ethereal, and some have a need to believe in something, only if it can be proved to exist."

We love stories,sucess ,failure ,tragedy,gossip ,they are powerful , we read newspapers with stories about tosh ( sunday sport) or famous people (more tosh),Michael Jackson springs to mind.

The stranger the story the more appealing it is ,With thousands of stories to pick from , some we believe to be true ....well not all of us !

[Morpheus]

I'm in the unfortunate position of having a very clear vision of how and why unseen forces work in this world but people filter and project their own beliefs and prejudices over any attempt at an explanation.

 

Each person needs to deconstruct their own belief system in order to achieve any meaningful progress, spiritually. Until they are humbled by circumstances beyond their control, this may never happen.

 

It's one of the main reasons for so called 'accidents' and coincidences.

 

Start by observing synchronistic events.

[TubbyTwo]

I'm in the unfortunate position of having a very clear vision of how and why unseen forces work in this world but people filter and project their own beliefs and prejudices over any attempt at an explanation.

 

Each person needs to deconstruct their own belief system in order to achieve any meaningful progress, spiritually. Until they are humbled by circumstances beyond their control, this may never happen.

 

It's one of the main reasons for so called 'accidents' and coincidences.

 

Start by observing synchronistic events.

 

any more info? sounds very interesting!

[Terminator]

You can tell it is winter and the weather is bad, all the MKIV philosophers gather to pontificate;)

[Josh]

any more info? sounds very interesting!

 

Google 'LSD'.

 

 

[Rob]

Is it a human disposition to have a need to believe in something greater, or more obscure than ourselves?

 

I guess it comes back to, some people have a need to believe in something,even if its intangible/ethereal, and some have a need to believe in something, only if it can be proved to exist.

 

You then have to ask if its purely a case of what we a capable of proving to exist at the time, after all we thought the world was flat once until we where capable of proving otherwise.

 

I think its a protection system, from the quite daunting truth that we are insignificant in the universe and our lives have no meaning except what we ourselves make of it. Some, well a lot, of people don't want to accept that so instead opt for a belief system where everything is controlled/created by a higher being and that death will allow them to pass over to a greater existance.

 

I often feel this manefests itself more these days as more people turn away from organised religion, with conspiracy theories. Its far easier to believe that some evil Govt. has orchestrated 9/11 and 7/7, or that "dark forces" assassinated Diana in that tunnel, because if you believe that there is hope that some "hero" can expose it and stop the evil and it will never happen again. The scarier truth, that anyone with the will power can fabricate a bomb and blow it up in the train that you're sitting in right now, and ultimately, no-one can stop them from doing so, is too hopeless to contemplate. Similarly, if Diana, with her security, and chauffers and wealth can die in a car crash, so can you.

 

I'm all for Orgone energy, and cloudbusting, it sounds like fun.

[Septic]

I think its a protection system, from the quite daunting truth that we are insignificant in the universe and our lives have no meaning except what we ourselves make of it. Some, well a lot, of people don't want to accept that so instead opt for a belief system where everything is controlled/created by a higher being and that death will allow them to pass over to a greater existance.

 

I often feel this manefests itself more these days as more people turn away from organised religion, with conspiracy theories. Its far easier to believe that some evil Govt. has orchestrated 9/11 and 7/7, or that "dark forces" assassinated Diana in that tunnel, because if you believe that there is hope that some "hero" can expose it and stop the evil and it will never happen again. The scarier truth, that anyone with the will power can fabricate a bomb and blow it up in the train that you're sitting in right now, and ultimately, no-one can stop them from doing so, is too hopeless to contemplate. Similarly, if Diana, with her security, and chauffers and wealth can die in a car crash, so can you.

 

I'm all for Orgone energy, and cloudbusting, it sounds like fun.

 

I think this 'protection system' can work the other way round too. I feel the vast majority of atheists are so because it affirms their lifestyle and the thought of an omnipotent being judging them prompts their disbelief.

 

You seem to be quite objective about it all though which is good, as many others dismiss belief due to the above reason and then contradict themselves whilst going on a tyrade about good vs evil etc (or the whole 'memes' theory). Observe Richard Dawkings and his God Delusion programme- he contradicts himself a lot in that and the programme did really also expose some of his 'motivations' for his non-belief in a diety.

 

Ultimately, saying that belief is just down to this 'comfort/hope factor' is a big generalisation just like my above point (1st para).

[Wez]

[Max Headroom]

I am a firm believer that when we die nothing happens, thats it lights out. We are an insignificant species on an insignificant speck of dust, yet we believe we are the masters of the universe. We dream of great things yet tha sad truth is, this planet is all we have, until we as a whole can start fixing the planet we will go nowhere.

 

Sorry I am meandering, we as a race need to believe in something, our comfort/hope factor, yet while believing something better will come along we do nothing to achieve this goal. As individuals we may do, but as a society as a whole there is not the will to make it happen, rather belief in the hope that it will get better.

 

Whilst I do not do religion anymore I am more a follower of Carl Sagan's address on the "Pale Blue Dot", until we can overcome our petty jealousies, many of which are driven in the name of religion, then belief will be stoked up by these same petty jealousies. Is there one god, perhaps, but looking at the world as a whole there are literally thousands of "gods", which one is right.

 

Perhaps at the next evolutionary step we may understand more, or we may as a race be wiped out in the blink of an eye, but until that time comes I will believe what I believe

[Matt H]

A lot of people have hit the nail on the head in this thread. The reason for the existance of belief in a high power comes from one of three things or a combination of these things:

 

1) A lack of understanding (what's that big ball of light in the sky? - If gives life to everything on the planet, it must be godly)

2) Hope (the need to satisfy emptyness, or a means to the end over injustices that can't ever be righted)

3) Power / control (influence over others)

[Tannhauser]

Interesting proof that the sheep are willing to believe and the goats are more sceptical, even when simply ticking a box for true and false.

 

 

 

 

Believers act like they're permanently high? Nice.

 

Also interesting that you look like you're interpreting that as the inferior or distorted way of thinking. Remember that the goats are also making errors, because they are missing genuine connections.

[Tannhauser]

I think its a protection system, from the quite daunting truth that we are insignificant in the universe and our lives have no meaning except what we ourselves make of it. Some, well a lot, of people don't want to accept that so instead opt for a belief system where everything is controlled/created by a higher being and that death will allow them to pass over to a greater existance.

 

I often feel this manefests itself more these days as more people turn away from organised religion, with conspiracy theories. Its far easier to believe that some evil Govt. has orchestrated 9/11 and 7/7, or that "dark forces" assassinated Diana in that tunnel, because if you believe that there is hope that some "hero" can expose it and stop the evil and it will never happen again. The scarier truth, that anyone with the will power can fabricate a bomb and blow it up in the train that you're sitting in right now, and ultimately, no-one can stop them from doing so, is too hopeless to contemplate. Similarly, if Diana, with her security, and chauffers and wealth can die in a car crash, so can you.

 

I'm all for Orgone energy, and cloudbusting, it sounds like fun.

 

Great post. I really agree strongly with paragraph two. I think there's also a strange reasoning process going on (among conspiracy theorists), like this: little events have trivial causes, therefore big events have big causes. Diana's death is a Big Event, so it cannot have been caused by a trivial cause (like an ordinary, unengineered car-crash).

 

Para one, though, I think falls into a trap, which I'll post on below.

[Tricky-Ricky]

Interesting, i was going to say its all getting very theosophical, but if you look at the definition of Theosophy, maybe not!

 

I am not religious, i am under no illusion as to how life works, and accept that what happens is partly influenced by the choice's i make and what we call chance/fate whatever our belief's, if any are.

I am totally at the mercy of whatever forces have a bearing on my existence, interspersed with whatever i do about it, and thats that.

 

But obviously i am shaped by my my experience's, the people that have a impact on my life etc etc, and more fundamentally by how my brain works, is wired whatever you like to call it, and i suppose that brings me full circle, as to whether i believe in the supernatural.

 

If i lump it all together IE a higher being/force, the supernatural, aliens etc i would have to say that for me, given tangible proof that i can touch, feel, see,smell, then i would have to say yes, but only if they meet my criteria mentioned.

[Tannhauser]

There are several posts on here explaining away the belief in the unexplained as a need to believe in something greater/outside of ourselves and so on, and then extending that into belief in God.

 

I think the view that those beliefs are simply escapism is wrong. Although undoubtedly that is a major part of it, it misses some other reasons:

 

1. For many, God or something beyond seems the most rational belief for the universe they observe. There is this view that one has to either believe in science or in God, but that's simply not the case. There are many, many scientists who see no incompatibility between the two. In fact, if we look at our greatest ever scientist, Newton, the elucidation of the laws of gravity only revealed God's glory further - as he saw it.

 

2. Many have a belief in God - or again the supernatural - based on their personal experience. If you have a very strong sense of a presence, then you could conclude (a) you're having a psychotic episode or (b) there was a presence. If nothing else in your experience leads you to believe you're psychotic, why wouldn't you conclude (b) is correct? In other instances, we rely on our senses to inform us correctly.

 

Apropos to all this, I was at a conference on the Philosophy of Religion on Monday. One of the speakers there was Keith Ward - he's a philosopher and devout Christian. It's impossible to listen to such a guy speak and maintain this fiction that religious thinkers are irrational, illogical and ill-informed. For the record, I think he's wrong, but in a way, that's my faith.

[Tannhauser]

But obviously i am shaped by my my experience's, the people that have a impact on my life etc etc, and more fundamentally by how my brain works, is wired whatever you like to call it, and i suppose that brings me full circle, as to whether i believe in the supernatural..

 

There is an evolutionary theory that the tendency to believe in the supernatural and superstition is wired into us by evolution. The argument goes like this:

 

When two events happen together, we could see tham as connected or unconnected. So for example, if I eat some mushrooms and then I am sick, this could be because the mushrooms caused the sickness (connection) or put it down to chance (no connection).

 

If I miss the connection, then next time I eat something poisonous it might kill me. If I incorrectly put my sickness down to the mushrooms, and then avoid mushrooms in the future, the worse that's going to happen is that I miss out on one food source. The same logic could work with avoiding places where there might be predators etc. In evolutionary terms, it might be better to make a few incorrect associations than miss something really big.

 

We therefore have an innate tendency to try to link together events, even if there is no real connection between them. So for example, if I wear a green jumper and then pass an exam, the two events become associated, and green (or the jumper) become 'lucky'. In the same way, if someone has a dream and then the dream apparently comes true, the dreamer may make a connection where none exists: their dream predicted the future.

 

Maybe we're all genetically wired to see connections when there aren't any.

[Tricky-Ricky]

Maybe we're all genetically wired to see connections when there aren't any.

 

I think you have probably summed it up there, but as you described, i think maybe we would already be extinct, if we where not predisposed to making connection's;)

[jagman]

There is an evolutionary theory that the tendency to believe in the supernatural and superstition is wired into us by evolution. The argument goes like this:

 

When two events happen together, we could see tham as connected or unconnected. So for example, if I eat some mushrooms and then I am sick, this could be because the mushrooms caused the sickness (connection) or put it down to chance (no connection).

 

If I miss the connection, then next time I eat something poisonous it might kill me. If I incorrectly put my sickness down to the mushrooms, and then avoid mushrooms in the future, the worse that's going to happen is that I miss out on one food source. The same logic could work with avoiding places where there might be predators etc. In evolutionary terms, it might be better to make a few incorrect associations than miss something really big.

 

We therefore have an innate tendency to try to link together events, even if there is no real connection between them. So for example, if I wear a green jumper and then pass an exam, the two events become associated, and green (or the jumper) become 'lucky'. In the same way, if someone has a dream and then the dream apparently comes true, the dreamer may make a connection where none exists: their dream predicted the future.

 

Maybe we're all genetically wired to see connections when there aren't any.

 

What if someone else saw you eat the mushroom , he also saw the connection or not,and passed it on to someone else ,who ,,,..... A myth appears, and we have an innate tendency to tell stories and embellish them