Hypertune or Virtual Works Manifold?

[Crouch]

Ok people i have a question! don't know if it should be in the tech section but it can be moved if i'm wrong.

 

On my way to producing 800hp i've been left with a choice and wonder what one is better or which one you would have so!....The intake on my supra is standard at the moment but will be getting changed to release some power and let the engine breath so would you have a hypertune manifold or a virtual works manifold?? they both can flow more power than i'm after according to the sale pitches but is there a difference? is one made better than the other or is it down to the power they will release or simply a name brand thing!...the hypertune is about 200 quid more! penny for your thoughts????

[JamieP]

I went Hypertune, Lee told me it looks much better quality than the VWR.

[davej705]

Hypertune looks the nuts,that's the way I'd go If I were you

[Crouch]

The other thing that i should of asked while i'm on the subject is the virtual works requires a power steering relocation kit and there is one available on the phr web site! i take it the hypertune needs the same thing and can you just order one from some where or is it custom fab that'll be needed? can the one on phr's site be used for either manifold!

[JamieP]

Ive not seen any relocation kit myself, mine is just moved to the top of the bay with a couple of longer hoses.

[Crouch]

had me thinkin there!!! checked the site and there's a kit for relocating it but looks like your right it's more about the shiney stuff than an actual need for fitting the manifold, any way i've got about two weeks till i'll be ordering the stuff so still time for me to get my facts in!

 

out of interest how much should i gain from this manifold currently running hks 272 cams,gt 4088 tubby and 1000c injectors on aem ems with all supporting mods pistons rods arp bolts all over?? the tubby needs changin for a bw one for 800hp but just wondering?? 10-15hp with mapping on current setup?

[JamieP]

Total guess, 30-40 bhp, thats the gain is see with my old Greddy manifold.

 

 

Few pics i stole from supraforum:notworthy

 

 

[img]http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f351/LilCeser/parts%20forsale/IMG_0539.jpg[/img]

[JamieP]

Oh btw, Lee P of SRD can get them for a great price.

[Crouch]

holly sh*t look at that!!! think i just let out some sex wee!! i want one!.. i thought the red runners was just put on the picture for extra drule factor they actualy like that? if it is i'll need to match some hoses and stuff to match but my cars black and was thinkin of blue hoses. although the oil cooler i have has red/blue anodized fittings so red might work.

[JamieP]

Yeah, them runners are just anodized id say, left mine billet and polished the plenum.

[Rob_Mitchell]

wow that looks the bollox, im loving the red contrast too

[suprab]

wow that looks amazing, is there much "extra" work to get these fitted up? i think you need to relocate the battery, but is there much else for doing?? sorry for butting in!!

[Chris Wilson]

Madness, all that bespoke manifold machining and they still use a single throttle body? Why didn't they go for 6 throttle bodies, it wouldn't have made THAT much difference to the price, may have even been cheaper if they'd used off the shelf throttle bodies and worked around them?

[Crouch]

think individual throttle bodies would be a lot harder due to having to make sure they open in perfect unisin which has multi linkages and such! this way has less moving parts and only the shape of the plenum to control flow to each cylinder, don't want all the forced air to go more to one cylinder than another for mapping reliability reasons. might be talkin complete gash but thats my thoughts on it but i'm no race engineer or flow dynamics expert!

[Guest thesmileyone]

Mapping is harder, perfect unison is easy you do that mechanically.

 

This is the best explanation i have of it, to sum it up the gains are minimal (and its harder to map) but usefull for better throttle response (not lag).

 

When an engine is operating in "vacuum" that just means it's operating at an intake manifold pressure below atmospheric. When we turbocharge it or supercharge it in any way, we're elevating that pressure above atmospheric. This does not negate the laws of physics, if only it did things would be a lot easier. All you're doing is increasing the density of the air via pressure, while this does change the tuning range of the intake manifold minimally, the rules still apply.

 

It's best to think of intake manifold pressure as Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP), and the units I like and which are typically used in standalone ECUs are kPa, kiloPascals. 0 kPa would be a perfect vacuum with no air and no pressure, this never exists inside an engine. 100 kPa corresponds roughly to atmospheric pressure, or approximately 14.7 psi. This is the key, there is always pressure, even in your intake manifold. If there was no pressure air would not enter the engine. There is no such thing as "suction" or air being drawn in, it is air being pushed in by atmospheric pressure. A forced induction engine is just that, its pressure levels are simply a bit higher than the normal atmospheric pressure available naturally.

 

That said, I think you can achieve any flow number regardless of ITB or single throttle body. The ITBS WILL provide superior throttle response because the TBs are so close to the combustion chamber. Air is at full pressure in front of the ITBs and when you open them there is far less time necessary for that air pressure to make its way into the chamber. The flow will be equivalent to a TB of equal flow area. You find the flow area by adding up all four ITB surface areas, pi*r^2 where r is the radius of the butterfly. Do the same with the single TB setup butterfly and compare. Usually ITBs have much more surface area so they can flow more, but a huge TB with proper plenum might have the same flow with less response, but this is often not a huge difference in response.

 

This all assumes similar runner shape, size, and length, which also has an effect. I think some of the effects of ITBs are negated simply because you have to put a plenum and inlet pipe on the setup with forced induction, whereas with NA the idea is to have no plenum or inlet whatsoever restricting airflow into the runners. So is there an advantage, absolutely, even with forced induction, but is it worth it for most people, not at all. With a large enough plenum and TB, and the right runners you should make just as much power on a turbo engine and only suffer a small loss in throttle response. I wouldn't bother unless you're getting the stuff super cheap and building yourself. Otherwise you're talking a few thousand for a nice ITB setup.

 

And there is always that pesky MAP signal problem. It will be difficult to tune with a speed density/MAP system, MAF would make it possible but again, that's if you have a plenum and piping going to it to put the sensor on. The other option is Alpha-N which uses the TPS to determine fueling, and it can be made to work well if done right, it can be pretty crude though. The best is Alpha-N at low throttle openings and then switch to MAP only near WOT or under boost, when you have a more stable MAP signal. Obviously only standalones are likely to have this capability, Megasquirt is capable of it but I have never tried it.

 

Any time you're talking ITBs it really belongs on a race car, not a street car. I didn't even mention until now that the setup can be hard to drive, very touchy, because of the huge amount of butterfly flow area. Modulation will be lacking.

 

I know this is quite a long post but I hope it is helpful.