Single Shopping list - I need your input

[j_jza80]

Can a single build be used everyday and have a degree of reliabilty??

 

I'd go as far as to say a well put together 500hp simple single install could be more reliable than stock.

[Jazzy]

I used my single (550+ bhp T61) as a daily drive for over 2 years before i sold it. Never gave me any trouble what so ever

[Gaz6002]

Can a single build be used everyday and have a degree of reliabilty??

 

It can, but it costs and you need to find the right person to build it. Mine is very good in its current state of tune, but I've over-engineered on quite a few aspects and had the help of Lee P and Ryan

 

I think once you enter the world of built engines you factor in quite a few more variables and generally won't find the same reliability.

[Evil_Nuts]

Cool, I've no immediate plans for a Single build just yet.......maybe when I've finally moved house and have the money to do it properly.......until then I'll just watch and admire you guys!

[Ricky49]

Mind the hidden costs that you don't think about the little bits add up.

 

I didn't budget for the small bits and I could of bought another syvecs with what added up.

[Scott]

Mind the hidden costs that you don't think about the little bits add up.

 

I didn't budget for the small bits and I could of bought another syvecs with what added up.

 

That's what the shopping list is for

 

Do you have some examples?

[mark newman]

new pants

[Nic]

Power output will be 700hp MAX.

 

Add a built engine to the shopping list.

[Scott]

Add a built engine to the shopping list.

 

 

Why? Everyone else seems to be managing it. The US have been doing it for years.

[caseys]

Spend the money you'd save on the above two by having your cams done and head examined.

 

He's not that crazy... at least at the moment

 

As others have said, how much do you drive it where you'd use it to it's full potential at a crazy 700 figure?

 

I'd be going after the 550bhp as Nic et al have mentioned and get as quicker/low end spool as possible. Then if you ever find that 550bhp gets too manageable then go for more.

 

I must admit owning a single has taken the true fun out of supercar track day experiences! Going down Silverstone's hanger straight in a Gallardo @ full WOT I was wondering when the power was going to kick in, then realised I was already at peak power and that was it. Probably a little different on the street, but definitely no kick that a single turbo gave.

 

Just for an example on a decent car/race simulator, for me at least there's a tipping point on a track/circuit, where handling and weight reduction (i.e traction increasing modification) helps being faster. After a certain amount of HP where traction becomes a factor and you're constantly having to battle throttle (why let traction control take that fun away from you?) cars then only become suited to strips / motorways / places where the power can be put down in a straight and dry line. But again, this is just IMHO from the cars I've driven and the simulators I've tinkered with (being so geeky and trying to shave tenths of a second off a sub 7-minute 'ring laptime on some programs.

 

P.S Water temp gauge? Why not just go Dash-2 as well if you could? Love the idea of that myself.

[Scott]

He's not that crazy... at least at the moment

 

As others have said, how much do you drive it where you'd use it to it's full potential at a crazy 700 figure?

 

I'd be going after the 550bhp as Nic et al have mentioned and get as quicker/low end spool as possible. Then if you ever find that 550bhp gets too manageable then go for more.

 

I must admit owning a single has taken the true fun out of supercar track day experiences! Going down Silverstone's hanger straight in a Gallardo @ full WOT I was wondering when the power was going to kick in, then realised I was already at peak power and that was it. Probably a little different on the street, but definitely no kick that a single turbo gave.

 

Just for an example on a decent car/race simulator, for me at least there's a tipping point on a track/circuit, where handling and weight reduction (i.e traction increasing modification) helps being faster. After a certain amount of HP where traction becomes a factor and you're constantly having to battle throttle (why let traction control take that fun away from you?) cars then only become suited to strips / motorways / places where the power can be put down in a straight and dry line. But again, this is just IMHO from the cars I've driven and the simulators I've tinkered with (being so geeky and trying to shave tenths of a second off a sub 7-minute 'ring laptime on some programs.

 

P.S Water temp gauge? Why not just go Dash-2 as well if you could? Love the idea of that myself.

 

 

I'm too tall for track days (tried to do an experience day years ago), I can't get in the Supra with a crash helmet on so I won't be tracking the car either. The 700hp doesn't come from what I want to use the car for, it comes from the maximum I think is safe to push the stock engine too taking account of my usage. I think I'll have a pair of boost maps, the 700hp will only be on tap on VERY special occasions. It's just a want rather than a need.

 

My mileage has been on average 2k per year, I don't drive my car hard or push it to the limit. Also the spooling time of the 6765 isn't a kick in the crack off of a GT35 if you have a look at JP's graph.

 

I really don't like the Dash2, I think it looks too 90s for my liking. Not sure if a water temp gauge would be necessary. I know the stock one is analogue but it tells you when the car is overheating.

[Nic]

Why? Everyone else seems to be managing it. The US have been doing it for years.

 

700hp US and 700hp UK tends to vary a bit. They may have been doing it for years but do they last years? Do these guys admit when an engine has gone bang? There are quite a few guys on here who have been running 600hp or less on stock engine for years, Ian C's T67 for example, even that is asking a lot of a stock 15 year old engine.

 

Maybe it's just me, if I built another single turbo Supra I would want to be fully confident in the reliability of the car at the end of the build. If my aim was 600hp, then I would get the engine rebuilt/refreshed probably with stock OEM parts where needed. If I was aiming for 700hp then I would rebuild the engine with stronger aftermarket internals to handle the power.

[Nic]

Have you driven/been in many single turbo cars Scott?

[Scott]

700hp US and 700hp UK tends to vary a bit. They may have been doing it for years but do they last years? Do these guys admit when an engine has gone bang? There are quite a few guys on here who have been running 600hp or less on stock engine for years, Ian C's T67 for example, even that is asking a lot of a stock 15 year old engine.

 

Maybe it's just me, if I built another single turbo Supra I would want to be fully confident in the reliability of the car at the end of the build. If my aim was 600hp, then I would get the engine rebuilt/refreshed probably with stock OEM parts where needed. If I was aiming for 700hp then I would rebuild the engine with stronger aftermarket internals to handle the power.

 

Like Chief Groovers car? JPs car was fine for many miles and he ragged the absolute bollocks off of it, by his own admission. 99% of the time my car will only be pushing around the 600hp mark, being turned up to 700ish for those "special" occasions that I mentioned. The only time I can see my engine being in any danger is during the mapping.

 

The US guys quote 700RWHP on stock blocks, which to me is the equivilant of 700FWHP over here. Some take it even further.

 

I might be misremembering a quote but I am sure it was said there are more bottom end failures on uprated internals than stock internals.

 

Have you driven/been in many single turbo cars Scott?

 

I've driven 2 and been in 3. All under 600hp though.

[imi]

Can a single build be used everyday and have a degree of reliabilty??

 

10k miles a year, singled it over 2 years ago and going strong. Just change my clutch and flywheel after 37k miles

[Nic]

Like Chief Groovers car?

 

Chiefgroovers old Supra has recently gone BANG I believe.

 

JPs car was fine for many miles and he ragged the absolute bollocks off of it, by his own admission

 

I only ran my stock engine at that power for a very short while and it didnt like it, at the first thunder road i did the engine became noisy and when stripped down it had scoring on the bores and a possible head problem, that was only after a few thousand miles at 730bhp

[Bailey.]

I've just decided I'm going to fully refresh my head and bottom end when I go single, only replacing worn parts, rings etc but still a refresh all the same!

[Scott]

Chiefgroovers old Supra has recently gone BANG I believe.

 

That was my point Nic

 

JP's built engine went pop too.

 

His last one lasted 1000's of miles being torn apart at every opportunity, my car will be driven like a gran 90% of the time, even during the other 10% of the time 9.99% of that will giving it the beans it will be in "low boost" so well under the 700hp mark.

 

Where does your opinion of 6xx being ok and 700 not being OK come from? Is it experience? I have experienced traders telling me via PM it will be fine at that level, especially taking into account my driving style. I've heard of BPU cars going pop, i've heard of N/As going pop, I've seen thread after thread with people having issues with their car. You can't simply say that 700hp = broken engine as it just doesn't work that way. The people you mention with 600hp cars, did they try 700 and find it wouldn't work? How many people have had 700hp and had an engine fail? JP's didn't, his bores were scored and it didn't have a lot left but it didn't fail.

 

We need to get away from the "just because it is" mentality in this country. It's the reason we are so far away from the US in the first place. Always afraid to push the boundaries..... and not even brave enough to see where the boundaries lie.

[Nic]

Where does your opinion of 6xx being ok and 700 not being OK come from?

 

There are a number of cars running around 600hp for a few years now and generally the stock engine seems to be able to cope, which is pretty amazing given it's almost twice the stock power. Maybe you'll be okay running 700hp I don't know, you seem determined to go ahead and take the risk.

 

Just for augments sake though, worse case scenario here: You go ahead get a kit capable of 700hp, it's built by one of these experienced traders who have told you it'll be fine. Then whilst on the dyno getting mapped at 700hp, the engine lets go and it's completely trashed, a fragment also finds it's way through the turbo and effectively trashes that as well. How are you going to feel? Will the 'experienced trader' be footing the bill for a new engine and turbo?

[Luxluc]

Imo, Nic's right.

 

I have the parts that are lying in my garage to raise the power to 700+ too ; but I know that it'll be a game with the fire.

So far, I've done 2 years on a PHR Stage 1 turbo (around 550bhp), plus 1 year on my actual turbo (626 bhp).

 

I will go for a WI kit (50% water, and 50% methanol) for some additional safety, but I know that the engine can go bang every moment with over 600hp at the wheels.

 

I think you should be aware of that.

 

I plan to go for a complete rebuild engine, but not now.

[JamieP]

For the most i think 700bhp on a healthy stock engine will be fine if you look after it and dont do to many top speed runs, it is a risk but as long as you are aware of it thats fine, both times i have had problems with my stock and built engine was at thunder road, i pushed that stock engine hard and it never liked it in the end, i knew my built engine had a problem before i even raced at thunder road but as i was taking it apart the week later for the winter upgrades i took the risk and ran it, we think the block had a crack as every time i went flat out the water system pressurised and overflowed, i got that block out of a crashed supra. running a 50shot of Nitrous off the line and in every gear on top of 900bhp might have helped finish it off, i cared not as i wanted to upgrade the engine anyhow.

[Terminator]

If I wanted a reliable single to use every day and last for years, on a stock engine I would aim for the mid to high 500's, much more than this and on an old engine with standard components is living on borrowed time IMHO. With a small billet turbo you could have a really quick drivable beast of daily driver, probably a lot more fun and usable than 700 bhp monster. You could use a 3.5inch well silenced system to keep sound levels down, which in a daily driver is essential if you want to live with it.

 

I agree with Jamie chasing numbers is expensive, as you need to spend a lot of money on the very best components, even then there is no guarantee it will last. With a stock engine you are limited to the standard rev limit, so having a fairly big turbo is a waste of time (IMHO) as you are not using using its potential and you comparatively little rpm where it really delivers power, it can be quite a surprise how fast the revs rise with a big turbo once it gets going on WOT. To raise the limit you need to scrap everything but the block crank and head and sumps and find someone who can build a motor that will deliver what you want.

 

You need to ask yourself what is the primary purpose of the car. Once you have decided your goal, you can work out the budget that will deliver what you want. While you may save a few £ making a bitza, I would go with a tried and tested kit, you will have a lot less fabrication to do, and there will be others here who have experience of the kit. Pay great attention to efficiency of rads and coolers, if the data is not available for a component, forget it and look else where.

[kill1308]

You forgot to add spare pants to the list

[Scott]

There are a number of cars running around 600hp for a few years now and generally the stock engine seems to be able to cope, which is pretty amazing given it's almost twice the stock power. Maybe you'll be okay running 700hp I don't know, you seem determined to go ahead and take the risk.

 

Just for augments sake though, worse case scenario here: You go ahead get a kit capable of 700hp, it's built by one of these experienced traders who have told you it'll be fine. Then whilst on the dyno getting mapped at 700hp, the engine lets go and it's completely trashed, a fragment also finds it's way through the turbo and effectively trashes that as well. How are you going to feel? Will the 'experienced trader' be footing the bill for a new engine and turbo?

 

I fully accept that, however you have to see it from my point of view as well Nic which you seem to be missing.

 

Am I guaranteed that if I build for 600hp my engine won't go on the rollers of the dyno? Of course I am not. Putting the car on the rollers for mapping is a risk regardless of the HP you are aiming for. Is aiming for 700 rather than 600 any more of a risk than aiming for 600 over 500? People need to test the boundaries to get answers to these questions, engines need to go pop for us to know their limits. We can't just go with "well he went to 600 and he was fine" as the sole argument on the limits of a car.

 

Most of your argument is based on the dangers of going single, not an argument against going for 700hp. There is nothing you have put forward that relates to my goal and the dangers of that goal. You just keep throwing 700hp in there randomly as a limit.... and I want to know why it is a limit.

 

If you can show me anything other than "because noone else goes over 650 and they are fine" then I will look into it very cautiously and I might come out the other end totally agreeing with you. My whole point with you has been your opinion is based on opinions.. not facts. My opinion and decision is based on facts and experience of current owners and traders.

[Scott]

If I wanted a reliable single to use every day and last for years, on a stock engine I would aim for the mid to high 500's, much more than this and on an old engine with standard components is living on borrowed time IMHO. With a small billet turbo you could have a really quick drivable beast of daily driver, probably a lot more fun and usable than 700 bhp monster. You could use a 3.5inch well silenced system to keep sound levels down, which in a daily driver is essential if you want to live with it.

 

I agree with Jamie chasing numbers is expensive, as you need to spend a lot of money on the very best components, even then there is no guarantee it will last. With a stock engine you are limited to the standard rev limit, so having a fairly big turbo is a waste of time (IMHO) as you are not using using its potential and you comparatively little rpm where it really delivers power, it can be quite a surprise how fast the revs rise with a big turbo once it gets going on WOT. To raise the limit you need to scrap everything but the block crank and head and sumps and find someone who can build a motor that will deliver what you want.

 

You need to ask yourself what is the primary purpose of the car. Once you have decided your goal, you can work out the budget that will deliver what you want. While you may save a few £ making a bitza, I would go with a tried and tested kit, you will have a lot less fabrication to do, and there will be others here who have experience of the kit. Pay great attention to efficiency of rads and coolers, if the data is not available for a component, forget it and look else where.

 

Not sure if this was aimed towards myself or just a general post

 

My car isn't a daily driver, it is a toy. I've had it over 3 years now and in that time did less than 6k miles (I will need to check what I have actually done, might even be less than 5).

 

Everyone talks about fast spooling but, as I have said previously, the 6765 is proven to have a fantatsic spool with it making silly power before 4krpm. You only have to look at JP's graphs to see that. I think I would be getting the best of both worlds with this turbo or one with similar characteristics. At first I was GT35r all the way but I see no point in spending the same amount of money for a 550hp goal when I could have a 700hp goal... regardless of whether I use it when I drive it or not.... I have it

 

Regarding the kits I definitely plan on going down that route. When I said I want to start buying the bits I am hoping for the kit to be one entity lol. I have been looking at the Whifbitz kits and they seem to be ticking all the boxes. If anything I would maybe buy an HKS manifold if one came up for grabs but other than that, as rightly said, a kit is the best option for me.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Scott (see edit history)