j_jza80 Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 and i meant REAL WAR - i.e. constant bombing of our towns and cities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallujah,_The_Hidden_Massacre http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-4100751410795302323# http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGTJq8LnIQg one of the comments on that youtube link summed it up nicely: "The whole point is that Iraqis are much worse off now than before we invaded. From lack of security to lack of jobs to lack of electricity to lack of potable water to destruction of the healthcare system to destruction of the educational system to destruction of women's rights to devastation of an entire nation, illegal occupation makes the brutality of the Ba'athist regime preferable by comparison. Ask any Iraqi who is NOT on the U.S. payroll." The point is though, that at least they will have the opportunity for a better existence in the future. Our soldiers died for their liberty, as they we're unable/unwilling to fight for themselves. Iraqi civilians were in constant danger of serious reprisals if they did so much as talk badly about the regiem. I recognise that many innocents have died as a result, but why should the sacrifice be ours? It's them we're liberating! It's easy to criticise our actions with hindsight, but what were the alternatives? Leave the Iraqi people to suffer? How many of the current anti war protesters would be protesting for our intervention now, had we not got involved? Womens rights? In that whole region of the world, it is a complete joke. Women aren't even allowed to drive in some middle eastern countries! This is something that WILL change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 The point is though, that at least they will have the opportunity for a better existence in the future. Our soldiers died for their liberty, as they we're unable/unwilling to fight for themselves. Iraqi civilians were in constant danger of serious reprisals if they did so much as talk badly about the regiem. I recognise that many innocents have died as a result, but why should the sacrifice be ours? It's them we're liberating! It's easy to criticise our actions with hindsight, but what were the alternatives? Leave the Iraqi people to suffer? How many of the current anti war protesters would be protesting for our intervention now, had we not got involved? Womens rights? In that whole region of the world, it is a complete joke. Women aren't even allowed to drive in some middle eastern countries! This is something that WILL change. go back a little and figure out who put saddam into power in the first place... we "liberated" them then and we are doing the same now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest samurai infidel Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 On twitter about 25 min ago.... i'm sure the people of iraq appreciate the daily suicide bombings which sometimes leave hundreds dead. It's easy to blame someone else when s41t hits the fan eh... What are you talking about? Who do you think are carrying out the suicide bombings? Coalition troops? I understand you are against the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, thats fair enough, you are entitled to have any opinion you choose. But please dont tell me that its all our fault that someone walks into a busy market and blows himself up, killing and maiming inocent people.(even when there are no troops there). I tell you what. Instead of talking to someone on twitter who claims to be in Iraq. Go there yourself, stand in the middle of Sadr city and if you last long enough( you never know you may pick up a cluster bomb of phos grenade) ask the people what they think. No you wont do that, because you can safely sit at home on your computer, bleating on about how wrong it all is. I for one am very proud of our military,and the job they are doing. Its because of those men and women that you can sit and air your veiws to the public ! Yes there are unfortunate and unwanted civillian casualties in any conflict, and of course i am saddened when i hear about them, but i am also saddened when i read or hear about british soldiers being killed over there too. And there lies the difference between us, all you see is how wrong it is to be there, not that the soldiers in some cases,not all , might actually be doing some good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 On twitter about 25 min ago.... i'm sure the people of iraq appreciate the daily suicide bombings which sometimes leave hundreds dead. It's easy to blame someone else when s41t hits the fan eh... We're there to fight this. Our counties lost many to these same people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 What are you talking about? Who do you think are carrying out the suicide bombings? Coalition troops? I understand you are against the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, thats fair enough, you are entitled to have any opinion you choose. But please dont tell me that its all our fault that someone walks into a busy market and blows himself up, killing and maiming inocent people.(even when there are no troops there). I tell you what. Instead of talking to someone on twitter who claims to be in Iraq. Go there yourself, stand in the middle of Sadr city and if you last long enough( you never know you may pick up a cluster bomb of phos grenade) ask the people what they think. No you wont do that, because you can safely sit at home on your computer, bleating on about how wrong it all is. I for one am very proud of our military,and the job they are doing. Its because of those men and women that you can sit and air your veiws to the public ! Yes there are unfortunate and unwanted civillian casualties in any conflict, and of course i am saddened when i hear about them, but i am also saddened when i read or hear about british soldiers being killed over there too. And there lies the difference between us, all you see is how wrong it is to be there, not that the soldiers in some cases,not all , might actually be doing some good. Please refrain from assuming that somehow a person who objects to the deaths of Iraqi's for example, isn't equally horrified at the deaths of 'our soldiers'. I think we can all take for granted that love is a universal constant and it is out of this love for humanity, in all it's forms, that anger and frustration arise, when an injustice is done. We're all on the same page here but some are more aware of the reasons for events. Also, no, coalition troops don't commit suicide until they get home and realise what they have done. Google Depleted Uranium Weaponry. Wait, I'll do it for you. http://www.thewe.cc/weplanet/news/depleted_uranium_iraq_afghanistan_balkans.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 What are you talking about? Who do you think are carrying out the suicide bombings? Coalition troops? I understand you are against the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, thats fair enough, you are entitled to have any opinion you choose. But please dont tell me that its all our fault that someone walks into a busy market and blows himself up, killing and maiming inocent people.(even when there are no troops there). I tell you what. Instead of talking to someone on twitter who claims to be in Iraq. Go there yourself, stand in the middle of Sadr city and if you last long enough( you never know you may pick up a cluster bomb of phos grenade) ask the people what they think. No you wont do that, because you can safely sit at home on your computer, bleating on about how wrong it all is. I for one am very proud of our military,and the job they are doing. Its because of those men and women that you can sit and air your veiws to the public ! Yes there are unfortunate and unwanted civillian casualties in any conflict, and of course i am saddened when i hear about them, but i am also saddened when i read or hear about british soldiers being killed over there too. And there lies the difference between us, all you see is how wrong it is to be there, not that the soldiers in some cases,not all , might actually be doing some good. I'm not proud of our forces invading other countries under false pretences. I'm not proud of the murder of innocent women men and kids our forces have contributed to... Murder is murder - there is never a justification for it. Sucide bombings never happened in Iraq or Afghanistan prior to the invasion... And before you harp on about the freedoms we get due to "our boys" - take a long hard look at what's really happening in this country. And yes - I was airing my views since 1997... So nothing really changed for me apart from the price of diesel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Beast Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 You asked for a source and you got given one yet you still harp on like a broken record... Civilians are dying daily in illegal wars waged by the us and britain... Does that not bother you? How would you feel if hour kid picked up a cluster bomb and was blown to smithereens Right get off your high horse straight away before you know the full facts, what your reading is media hype. I spent 7 years as a Bomb Disposal Officer working all over the world disarming and neutralizing these type of munitions so I would say I have a better understanding of these devices than any other person on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz6002 Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 I think it's worth noting that this 'media misinformation' works for the mainstream and the extreme left in equal measures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 I'm not proud of our forces invading other countries under false pretences. I'm not proud of the murder of innocent women men and kids our forces have contributed to... Murder is murder - there is never a justification for it. Sucide bombings never happened in Iraq or Afghanistan prior to the invasion... And before you harp on about the freedoms we get due to "our boys" - take a long hard look at what's really happening in this country. And yes - I was airing my views since 1997... So nothing really changed for me apart from the price of diesel... Say our wars in that area of the world are under false pretences, and that our objectives there are purely oil and making people suffer. You benefit from a lower oil price, benefit from the 'murders' so you're just as guilty as those out there. You also seem to have the luxury of making distinctions between casualties and murder from the comfort of your chair/sofa. Try doing that while being attacked by a minority of those you are trying to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 I think it's worth noting that this 'media misinformation' works for the mainstream and the extreme left in equal measures. The difference being that the media have to print retractions if they get something wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz6002 Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 The difference being that the media have to print retractions if they get something wrong. you got that right mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kill1308 Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 Jeez this went off topic faster than I expected... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaqTRD Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 Guys come on, this is going too far now. How is us debating this on a "CAR" forum going to change the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 Guys come on, this is going too far now. How is us debating this on a "CAR" forum going to change the world? Something to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Septic Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 The difference being that the media have to print retractions if they get something wrong. You'd think that. Post 7/7, I remember a young lad being named as one of the suicide bombers involved in the incident. It turned out that he had nothing to do with it and that, he was still alive. There was HARDLY ANY coverage whatsoever on the Western news channels (Sky, BBC, etc) but this guy was appearing constantly on Asian news channels deperate to try and clear his name and disassociate himself with the acts of terrorism. If the media did subsequently print a retraction, I didn't see it even though I set out to look for it. The media has its own agenda and I think we should all be aware of that fact. Anyways, I'm not getting involved in this debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abz Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 I think it's worth noting that this 'media misinformation' works for the mainstream and the extreme left in equal measures. Gaz, you are a mod! You now sound like a mod too! And well said. The difference being that the media have to print retractions if they get something wrong. Also very true, though wouldn't you agree they print front page information based on mass attraction. Think about the papers in the last 10 years, some people didn't even know Muslims existed before than. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedM Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 Gaz, you are a mod! You now sound like a mod too! He's not as much fun as he used to be. Mr. Serious now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz6002 Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 Also very true, though wouldn't you agree they print front page information based on mass attraction. Think about the papers in the last 10 years, some people didn't even know Muslims existed before than. Thing is, it's what sells papers. People actually like to get riled up about it. That very fact is what people like Alex Jones thrive upon; telling us we're being scared by the mainstream media without letting on that we're effectively slaves to his propaganda too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz6002 Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 He's not as much fun as he used to be. Mr. Serious now. I was never that much fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 Right get off your high horse straight away before you know the full facts, what your reading is media hype. I spent 7 years as a Bomb Disposal Officer working all over the world disarming and neutralizing these type of munitions so I would say I have a better understanding of these devices than any other person on this forum. ...so you're the sole authority on disposal of such munitions? are you denying the fact some of these munitions do escape YOUR radar and people do end up picking them up and as a consequence getting injured or killed? careful where you trod your horse.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 Say our wars in that area of the world are under false pretences, and that our objectives there are purely oil and making people suffer. You benefit from a lower oil price, benefit from the 'murders' so you're just as guilty as those out there. You also seem to have the luxury of making distinctions between casualties and murder from the comfort of your chair/sofa. Try doing that while being attacked by a minority of those you are trying to help. lower oil price?? what planet are you on? prior to the invasion the price of petrol was around 79-84p a litre... and yes, to an extent i am guilty as my tax money is funding this illegal war but that don't mean i shut up and let it happen........ silence makes you complicit to the crime. you don't help by bombing foreign lands in proxy wars for other states and/or large corprations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 I was never that much fun +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 +1 +2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 lower oil price?? what planet are you on? prior to the invasion the price of petrol was around 79-84p a litre... and yes, to an extent i am guilty as my tax money is funding this illegal war but that don't mean i shut up and let it happen........ silence makes you complicit to the crime. you don't help by bombing foreign lands in proxy wars for other states and/or large corprations. I know how expensive oil is, you're the one saying our motivation is oil, amongst other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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