davej705 Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 Can any tech guys on here explain how these f1 engines can rev to 18,000+ revs? They sound awesome Obviously alot of money goes into these blocks but what kind of components do they use to be able to achieve this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 No turbos allowed, displacement limited so to achieve more power you need more bangs per time unit, hence higher revs. Very lightweight pistons and rods, iirc. Its all about mass changing direction quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davej705 Posted November 6, 2010 Author Share Posted November 6, 2010 No turbos allowed, displacement limited so to achieve more power you need more bangs per time unit, hence higher revs. Very lightweight pistons and rods, iirc. Its all about mass changing direction quickly. What do they make their pistons etc out of.that must be some huge stresses in these engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 Pistons are alloy, rods are Ti, cranks are a work of art, usually with bolt on heavy metal counterweighting. The secret is more in keeping control of the valves than anything else. Air valve actuation, instead of springs, VERY thin stems, and state of the art cam profiles just about keep things in check, although the 18,000 max RPM rule has allowed some respite from near 20,000 a bit back. Race Engine Technology has just published the first and only, in depth, no holds barred article, with photos, of a current F1 engine, the Toyota unit. Fascinating reading. It's available by mail order, either as one off, or if you are into race engines, as a monthly subscription. http://www.highpowermedia.com/mall/productpage.cfm/RET/2050/352560 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davej705 Posted November 6, 2010 Author Share Posted November 6, 2010 F1 engines are amazing,the sound is the best thing,went to silverstone this year,couldn't believe how loud they are,even from far away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 The tolerances are so small that the pistons in an F1 engine are physically seized in the cylinder when the engine is cold. The oil and the coolant needs to be pumped through the engine to get it up to temp before it can be started. Exotic materials, fine tolerances and amazing design/engineering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 They aren't actually seized, but most serious modern race engines need pre heating before starting them. Here's a photo of Schumacher's old Benetton being pre heated at Donington before a run at this year's Masters Festival. More photos at http://www.newbury-house.com/masters/masters.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampy442 Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 Surprised Tony License isnt on this Short stroke, tight tollerances, light internals equal high revs. They really clamped down on exotic materials in the last couple of years as well so cranks are steel, blocks aluminium alloys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedrosixfour Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 They have a really big accelerator pedal. A big pedal always equals big revs. I have a big pedal on my NA. Its so fast now I had to repaint it with extra grippy paint because the old stuff got left behind.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagman Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 The pistons will still melt if they get to melting point! And weaken below this temp , so heat extraction is very important , higher revs mean more explosive combustion events per second , more total heat . So oil and water systems designed to extract it - I think 100 degree max oil temp despite 18000 rpm !! Water flow must be huge !! They must be close to almost constant combustion like an aircraft engine, but with alloy pistons that melt circa 650 degrees,some challenge!! At least we can use water meth!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davej705 Posted November 7, 2010 Author Share Posted November 7, 2010 They aren't actually seized, but most serious modern race engines need pre heating before starting them. Here's a photo of Schumacher's old Benetton being pre heated at Donington before a run at this year's Masters Festival. More photos at http://www.newbury-house.com/masters/masters.html The car looks like it's on a iv drip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampy442 Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 It basically is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davej705 Posted November 7, 2010 Author Share Posted November 7, 2010 I imagine the speeds they go help massively with the cooling,when they have to sit begin the safety car (which isn't slow) they get hot.they dont have fans do they? They just rely on airflow for cooling? The pistons will still melt if they get to melting point! And weaken below this temp , so heat extraction is very important , higher revs mean more explosive combustion events per second , more total heat . So oil and water systems designed to extract it - I think 100 degree max oil temp despite 18000 rpm !! Water flow must be huge !! They must be close to almost constant combustion like an aircraft engine, but with alloy pistons that melt circa 650 degrees,some challenge!! At least we can use water meth!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny g Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 I imagine the speeds they go help massively with the cooling,when they have to sit begin the safety car (which isn't slow) they get hot.they dont have fans do they? They just rely on airflow for cooling? Correct, there's no fans on them. But, when behind the safety cars, they're not pulling 18,000rpm. So, there's heat to dissipate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampy442 Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 I dont know why they dont have a pair of small fans in the sidepods that fold up against the air pressure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny g Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Weight! That weight can be used lower down as ballast. Plus, I think when they're slower, some of the engines can run as 4 cylinder. The Merc engine in 2007 certainly could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davej705 Posted November 7, 2010 Author Share Posted November 7, 2010 I dont know why they dont have a pair of small fans in the sidepods that fold up against the air pressure Weight probably,when your dealing with the sort of close times they deal with every gram counts I would think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagman Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Each 100 bhp = 73 Kw , 73000 watts of heat !! most goes out the exhaust but its the bit left over in the engine that causes the problem , the heat is generated at 2 points max torque and max rpm ,these overlap and integrate to give the total heat , it is the main destroyer of engines (coupled with det) . Rpm is the main factor , thats why Autobahn use cars have oil coolers ,they are at elevated rpms for long periods ,and the water cooling system is overloaded . F1 cars make great use of ducts for airflow over heat exchangers and increase the efficiency of them . large stresses can be dealt with by material selection but heat kills anything even the finest materials . keeping balance and constant temps in the engine is critical due expansion rates ,out of balance is just as bad as overheating ,hence the warming of engines before they get mullered on the track Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethr Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 If you like revs, you can have your own version... over 20 years ago all the Japanese manufacturers sold road-going 4-cylinder 250cc bikes that produced peak power at upwards of 15,000 rpm with the redline at 18,000 plus. The current 600s will hit 16,000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davej705 Posted November 7, 2010 Author Share Posted November 7, 2010 I have a gsxr 600 so used to high revs but cars with high revs is a different kettle of fish altogether Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davej705 Posted November 7, 2010 Author Share Posted November 7, 2010 Each 100 bhp = 73 Kw Is that the same for every engine? So the main cause of failures in high power engines is heat distribution throughout the engine,different stresses etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Probably why so many bike engines end up in Seven clones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davej705 Posted November 7, 2010 Author Share Posted November 7, 2010 Probably why so many bike engines end up in Seven clones Yeah and they're light which helps.when I get the time/effort I'm going to build a hayabusa turbo powered kit car.bet that would shift? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_jekyll Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 if you think these v8s sound good , you should have heard the 20k rpm v10s a few years ago, far more impressive sound track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davej705 Posted November 7, 2010 Author Share Posted November 7, 2010 Yeah it's unfortunate the cost to make those engines hinders them being used,I bet they had a lovely soundtrack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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