T6 setup... overkill for the UK?

[DARETT]

My benchmark is if an engine will do several full race speed 20 lap events on a proper UK race circuit without ANY engine issues, it's well developed. Anything less in something other than an F1 engine is unacceptable to me.

 

That would probably be an expensive benchmark to get to succesfully.

 

This is why I didn't go into TA, too expensive!!

[jagman]

I win? What do I win?

 

Will having more oil in the system with a bigger sump and using oil coolers and uprated rads not be enough to make it reliable? I understand the sump temp not being a perfect source,can other readings be taken from other places.

 

Win your race , you are not bothered about next week or next year only the guy behind you catching you !

 

Uprated rads will not increase flow , and without flow heat transfer does not have the same effect .again oil flow is a limiting factor .

Block and head temps need to be monitored and balance kept .

I will hopefully have more data soon and a fix

[tDR]

Mad if you think any T67 setup will come close to a T6 car, even my 76 is miles faster, with one run at the pod i was 12mph faster over the 1/4 than my best T67 time, and that was on the small hotside and 1.8 bar tune.

 

Imo its not about a built engine being prone to fail, built engines for the most have to cope with a lot more stresses, Higher revs and lots of power, if you tried to run a stock engine at my power level i would not expect it to last a single dyno pull.

 

Running lots of power costs $$$ and im happy with that as i want the power, if you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen:D

 

But you now have 3x women to clothe and feed and buy horses for

 

I agree that your T76 setup is faster than your T67 was and a T6 frame turbo setup will no doubt be faster again, the point I'm trying to get across is that you really are into the land of diminishing returns for your £££ and with it reliability increasingly goes out the window, leading to frustration that you can't drive the car when you want to and in the end you just decide 'sack it'.

 

Not sure why I'm being all sensible about it, I myself probably won't be when I get my next Supra! Although I'm increasingly getting a chubby for proper drifting - could be a welcome focus mod wise that will keep things semi sensible on the power front.

[DARETT]

Imo its not about a built engine being prone to fail, built engines for the most have to cope with a lot more stresses, Higher revs and lots of power, if you tried to run a stock engine at my power level i would not expect it to last a single dyno pull.

 

 

Good point.

 

We have to remember with a T6 setup we're talking over 1000hp, that's massive amounts of power, and over 3 times as stock.

 

Reliable for some may be a couple of seasons of drag/mile racing, whereas for others it might be the same sense of reliability that a BPU supra engine may have.

 

They're not bullet proof, but can last a "reasonable" amount of time. It's not a Bugatti engine after all

[JamieP]

But you now have 3x women to clothe and feed and buy horses for

 

I agree that your T76 setup is faster than your T67 was and a T6 frame turbo setup will no doubt be faster again, the point I'm trying to get across is that you really are into the land of diminishing returns for your £££ and with it reliability increasingly goes out the window, leading to frustration that you can't drive the car when you want to and in the end you just decide 'sack it'.

 

Not sure why I'm being all sensible about it, I myself probably won't be when I get my next Supra! Although I'm increasingly getting a chubby for proper drifting - could be a welcome focus mod wise that will keep things semi sensible on the power front.

 

67 setup is good value for sure, i could not drive one now though.

 

Big numbers get chucked about the forum without a thought these days, when i think of the fact my little 3.0L has 800ftlb it amazes me, supercar bashing performance for relative peanuts imo.

 

I can live with the odd rebuild, i will always have a spare shortblock built so if the worst happens i dont have a big down time, the money i save over buying a flash new car and watching it depreciate monthly will keep me in shortblocks and i have a car that can murder 99.9% of vehicles on the street, you can also be sure the kids and wife come first:D

Edited November 3, 2010 by JamieP (see edit history)

[Miguel]

Reliable for some may be a couple of seasons of drag/mile racing, whereas for others it might be the same sense of reliability that a BPU supra engine may have.

 

Boom. This is the crux of it, reliability is open to interpretation and this is where there is massive a void between UK and USA Supra owners.

Edited November 3, 2010 by Miguel (see edit history)

[davej705]

Win your race , you are not bothered about next week or next year only the guy behind you catching you !

 

Uprated rads will not increase flow , and without flow heat transfer does not have the same effect .again oil flow is a limiting factor .

Block and head temps need to be monitored and balance kept .

I will hopefully have more data soon and a fix

 

You make me sound like a fast and furious lover!

 

No it's not that at all mate,I like to have reliability in an engine.i haven't got unlimited money so don't want to keep replacing engines.I do think there are mods that can be done to help though.Lee p is on the case talking to alot of people getting all the info possible for my build.

 

Not the same I know but my last project was an impreza,I had everything over engineered so reliability wouldn't be an issue,I put 20,000 miles hard driving on that with no issues at 1.9 bar the whole time.i know it will be harder to over engineer a high power stroker engine but I'm sure there will be things that can be done.

 

What are the mods you are looking at then?

[Miguel]

The money i save over buying a flash new car and watching it depreciate monthly will keep me in shortblocks and i have a car that can murder 99.9% of vehicles on the street, you can also be sure the kids and wife come first:D

 

Can I borrow your calculator:d

[jevansio]

67 setup is good value for sure, i could not drive one now though.

 

Big numbers get chucked about the forum without a thought these days, when i think of the fact my little 3.0L has 800ftlb it amazes me, supercar bashing performance for relative peanuts imo.

 

I can live with the odd rebuild, i will always have a spare shortblock built so if the worst happens i dont have a big down time, the money i save over buying a flash new car and watching it depreciate monthly will keep me in shortblocks and i have a car that can murder 99.9% of vehicles on the street, you can also be sure the kids and wife come first:D

That is so true, I don't think I will ever buy a car where I'm losing a lot of money every month, I'd rather chuck it at the Supra

[Miguel]

 

I like to have reliability in an engine.i haven't got unlimited money so don't want to keep replacing engines.

 

Unfortunately you need to add this into your budget. The most highly specced engines cannot be guaranteed to stay together, that's the risks you have to be willing to take.

[Miguel]

That is so true, I don't think I will ever buy a car where I'm losing a lot of money every month, I'd rather chuck it at the Supra

 

Still losing money no matter what way you cut the cake, you just chose the cake you enjoy the most:)

[jevansio]

Still losing money no matter what way you cut the cake, you just chose the cake you enjoy the most:)

Mmmmmm, cake

[davej705]

Unfortunately you need to add this into your budget. The most highly specced engines cannot be guaranteed to stay together, that's the risks you have to be willing to take.

 

Yeah when I took the project on I accepted there could be failures.what I am trying to say is that there must be things that can be done to help prolong life and massively reduce failures.I'd rather spend the extra cash on prevention rather than cure I that makes sense.

 

Then again...

 

Better to live 5mins at 1000bhp than a life time at NA

[j_jza80]

That is so true, I don't think I will ever buy a car where I'm losing a lot of money every month, I'd rather chuck it at the Supra

 

My dad makes me laugh, he always digs at me owning old sports cars, how they cost so much in upkeep etc. He lost more in one year on his new Merc SL500 in depriciation than I paid for my single turbo car

 

My Supras have also been far more reliable than the new Jags, Mercs etc he buys, while being faster (current NA excluded ) cheaper to service and better on fuel.

[Miguel]

Yeah when I took the project on I accepted there could be failures.what I am trying to say is that there must be things that can be done to help prolong life and massively reduce failures.I'd rather spend the extra cash on prevention rather than cure I that makes sense.

 

Then again...

 

Better to live 5mins at 1000bhp than a life time at NA

 

Makes perfect sense, risk limitations. Again building everything right doesn't guarantee success, it just increases the chances of it. I've seen brand new factory backed engines grenade themselves first time on the dyno, and you're taking the path less troden which isn't sympathetic to 'limited' budgets.

[DARETT]

Makes perfect sense, risk limitations. Again building everything right doesn't guarantee success, it just increases the chances of it. I've seen brand new factory backed engines grenade themselves first time on the dyno, and you're taking the path less troden which isn't sympathetic to 'limited' budgets.

 

Great point.

 

I think that sums it all up, whichever route you go it is hazardous.

[davej705]

Makes perfect sense, risk limitations. Again building everything right doesn't guarantee success, it just increases the chances of it. I've seen brand new factory backed engines grenade themselves first time on the dyno, and you're taking the path less troden which isn't sympathetic to 'limited' budgets.

 

Hopefully I can use the failures that other people have had to help.I will give it ago and if I end up with a hole in the block and a hole in my pocket I've always got my trusty old astra to fall back on

[Miguel]

Hopefully I can use the failures that other people have had to help.I will give it ago and if I end up with a hole in the block and a hole in my pocket I've always got my trusty old astra to fall back on

 

An adventure, as they say.

[Pig]

show me a built engine that ran for say 10k+ hard miles without something going majorly wrong...

 

I dont know how many miles I have done but.....

RAF Marham x 1

Snetterton x 1

Le Mans x 1

Santa Pod x 2 (or more)

Santa pod drifting x 1

Local Drag day x 2

Local "track" days x 4

Ace cafe x 1

Woodbridge - mile long day about 5 runs

General weekend use with constant abuse x lots and lots

 

Use without abuse x 1 (the mrs used the car)

 

Maybe its just luck..... i personally think it was the great choice garage

 

I still stand by T6 all the way and on the 3.0.

3.0 is much cheaper to replace. I think the key is simple, good pistons and rods and good valves, springs and retainers.

I have missed gears and hit over 9000 rpm on more than one occasion and still have an engine. I think the fererra springs are to thank for that though.

[jagman]

You make me sound like a fast and furious lover!

 

No it's not that at all mate,I like to have reliability in an engine.i haven't got unlimited money so don't want to keep replacing engines.I do think there are mods that can be done to help though.Lee p is on the case talking to alot of people getting all the info possible for my build.

 

Not the same I know but my last project was an impreza,I had everything over engineered so reliability wouldn't be an issue,I put 20,000 miles hard driving on that with no issues at 1.9 bar the whole time.i know it will be harder to over engineer a high power stroker engine but I'm sure there will be things that can be done.

 

What are the mods you are looking at then?

 

You missed my point altogether !! you asked why you would build a car without regard to longevity-because you sell car parts based on results ie as fitted to our 7 second supra....yadda yadda ie you win first and worry later about the bill

Ons saving grace of the bigger power cars is that you cant keep your foot in for long periods , you just go too fast !! so the loadings are quite short lived .

Value for money wise -there isnt any !! -Walk !!

[bondango]

Ons saving grace of the bigger power cars is that you cant keep your foot in for long periods

 

Have to diagree there, i build Jz's that get real punisment from start to end of year

 

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vpzJF7ygGPc

 

reliabilty is Paramount

[dude]

There are a few different things that need to be done to the oiling system to try and prolong engine life in a 3.4.

These modifications though didn't come about without trial and error, and as Miguel advises in the US they have blown a load of 3.0/3.4's before getting to the stage that they are at now.

 

Filled blocks are helpful for the drag guys, but for the street/drag setups it's not possible and the oil system needs to be looked at.

 

These engines are very hard on bearing life, and apart from getting the clearances/tolerances to the right setup a few other modifications for oil pressure help alot.

 

On my own car we don't run an oil cooler, rather we have modified the sump for a much larger capacity, increasing oil pressure as well as keeping temps low.

Removing the piston squirters also helps retain higher pressure, and they are more of a hindrance with these setups.

 

There's a few other things carried out to the oil filter setup system, as well as the block and all ensure an extensive engine life.

The 3.4 in Cody's car for instance has hit a few 8 second passes, numerous nines, numerous dyno hits, and numerous mile runs at over 200 mph, without any motor related issues to date....

 

There will be no doubt some issues with some of them once they are built over here and over there, however the setup does work when you get it right.

 

Amir, you say you need to increase oil pressure, I was hitting over 10 bar with stock pump and filter etc, I was worried about too much pressure!!!!

I can't believe that all the millions Toyota spent on R&D on the 2JZ engine can be bettered by guys in sheds experimenting and losing a few engines in the process, the bigger sump yes, more oil = more cooling but been done for years on all sorts of cars, MVP mod their pumps I believe to limit oil pressure at high revs not increase it, bit confused by it all really but I will be keeping my squirters;)

[jagman]

Toyota spent many millions in development , with Yamaha involved in the head design originally .The close control of heat and its distribution is paramount and they did a great job , so much so you can nearly double the power output without instant failures.

They created a masterpiece and aftermarket then rub out the colours and fill in their own , they end up with a Picasso that sort of looks good with squinty eyes but nothing like the original design .

Temperature balance between block ,head is fundamental , toyota did the numbers at vast cost , the oilways ,water ways .pressures ,flows - heat distribution --- From combustion chamber , to pistons ,to rings to block and to air , then balance the system between block and head , keeping expansions within limits and heat flows around the head again balanced and within limits .

temp sensors up the ying yang , thermal imaging, computer flow analysis and then load and longevity testing IF you are pushing up the power and the heat generated at a minimum follow toyotas lead ,factor an increase in heat from the power generated and increase all the systems pro rata , water flow ,oil flow , etc and keep to their limits - Block temps,CHT , supply oil and water temps and return temps

Blocking squirters will totally alter the balance in pressure and flow ,and between head and block ,may work for 10 seconds , but what if you are in a traffic jam on the m25 , then unleash 800 bhp then hit traffic again ..has anyone even measured the block temp versus the head temp versus oil temp - once the oil system absorbs as much as it can (flow dependent) things get hot

Everything fails if it gets hot enough ,and weakens way before it melts , oil films and lubrication suffers badly again things fail

Step one is to control and closely regulate the water system , without this the oil system has to take the load then regulate and control the oil system , all based on Toyotas initial design. lastly the the air cooling system (undertrays,under bonnet air flow , intakes,vents etc ) - Most aftermarket air cooling just look different (picasso) the stock one works - they tested it !!

[DARETT]

bit confused by it all really but I will be keeping my squirters;)

 

Your not the only one who was confused with it all!

 

Lol,

 

Everyone builds engine's differently and has different opinions on setups etc, I'm just giving my input on what has been successfully working so far on 1000+hp 3.4 setups....

 

No doubt this will change as more and more money is spent on development, and hopefully guys like yourself/lee/whiffin will discover even more ways we can keep our engines from blowing up for longer.

[Ark]

Toyota ...tested it !!

 

Reminds me of an old article I read on the Rover K series engines, and how the tuners all re-introduced the problems that the K series was _specifically_ designed to resolve. For example, stronger head bolts might sound like a good idea, but they increased the thermal stress in certain areas...something like that, it was a while ago.