T6 setup... overkill for the UK?

[DARETT]

It takes around 9 quarts which iirc is about 8.5 litres.

 

I've attached a pic of it once coated

[davej705]

It takes around 9 quarts which iirc is about 8.5 litres.

 

I've attached a pic of it once coated

 

Who sells them or are the custom made?

[DARETT]

Another issue that's overlooked in these setups is the standard Oil filter's bypass feature.

 

At anything over 90-100psi the standard filter just bypasses everything back into the engine rather then filtering it. When running a car hard for prolonged periods and oil pressure up, it's a recipe for disaster.

Maybe a reason towards the 3.4's failing here as well...

[Miguel]

I'd be interested to know what you mean by "hindrance" with regards the oil squirters? Piston crown cooling is something I would want to retain on a car with increased cylinder temperatures and pressures, so it's interesting to hear their removal being recommended.

[JamieP]

Interesting stuff, running without an oil cooler would worry me though, i guess most these 3.4 cars that dont run oil coolers wont see much in the way of track work though?

[DARETT]

Who sells them or are the custom made?

 

It's a full kit that is available with the pre-modified sumps, and remote oil filter relocation kit.

Edited November 3, 2010 by DARETT (see edit history)

[JamieP]

It's a full kit that is available with the pre-modified sumps, and remote oil filter relocation kit.

We supply them and have them custom fabricated.

 

Who is "we"?

[davej705]

Another issue that's overlooked in these setups is the standard Oil filter's bypass feature.

 

At anything over 90-100psi the standard filter just bypasses everything back into the engine rather then filtering it. When running a car hard for prolonged periods and oil pressure up, it's a recipe for disaster.

Maybe a reason towards the 3.4's failing here as well...

 

What filter do you run instead of standard then?

[Chris Wilson]

Why would one want to run over 100 PSI oil pressure? A far more modest pressure should get the job done unless huge big end oil pressure is being used to counteract some detonation.

[DARETT]

I'd be interested to know what you mean by "hindrance" with regards the oil squirters? Piston crown cooling is something I would want to retain on a car with increased cylinder temperatures and pressures, so it's interesting to hear their removal being recommended.

 

With the majority of forged pistons, the design doesn't accomodate the squirters spraying them effectively, and it doesn't actually cool them.

With a custom piston design that can effectively allow the oil to be squirted effectively in the centre void, it can help. But to my recollection only Titan offer such a piston.

 

It also increases the overall oil pressure without them in.

 

Alot of the Subaru Tuners utilising the EJ22 block and stroking that, remove the squirters as well, as the oil pressure was key to their track setups.

 

With race fuel and a good tune etc the pistons haven't got much chance of detonation anyhow, and cooling them really isn't a factor thats needed to be considered

[Chris Wilson]

What filter do you run instead of standard then?

 

 

Oil filter bypass can easily be deleted by simply blocking the spring loaded valves in the filter head. Even that probably isn't needed if a filter cartridge is chosen that could handle the increased flow rate without becoming restrictive, which is the only reason the by pass system would open. It's there on most engines as a precaution to still allow oil flow if no one changes the filter for 200,000 miles, or it collapses internally.

[DARETT]

Who is "we"?

 

Cody.P or me.

 

 

Oil filter bypass can easily be deleted by simply blocking the spring loaded valves in the filter head. Even that probably isn't needed if a filter cartridge is chosen that could handle the increased flow rate without becoming restrictive, which is the only reason the by pass system would open. It's there on most engines as a precaution to still allow oil flow if no one changes the filter for 200,000 miles, or it collapses internally.

 

 

That could be a good way around it, although there is a Nascar filter that most are now using. I can't remember the brand but will try and get it up.

 

It's not expensive and is a billet aluminium type that can be used as a screw on or as a remote option.

 

It has a zero bypass feature and flows around 30 gallons per hour iirc, it's totally re-useable/cleanable.

Best thing about it was that after each run you can just remove the outer casing and check to see if any debris is coming through. Can avoid major failure before it happens

[DARETT]

Interesting stuff, running without an oil cooler would worry me though, i guess most these 3.4 cars that dont run oil coolers wont see much in the way of track work though?

 

I guess not, track work is growing in the US but I'm not aware of the supra track scene out there...

 

The oil stays relatively cool on the mile though. It logged at a maximum of 90c, which was fairly good for the amount of load that the car was seeing at over 200 mph

[JamieP]

Cody.P or me.

 

Ahh, so you must be the HP racing on the side of your car.

 

http://www.hpracing.co.uk/

[DARETT]

Why would one want to run over 100 PSI oil pressure? A far more modest pressure should get the job done unless huge big end oil pressure is being used to counteract some detonation.

 

Alot of these car's see over 100psi pretty easily.

 

There was a thread on SF, with a Supra track guy who had logged all his data, and for most of the time his car was hitting well over 90-100psi. He also later found that the bypass feature was the reason for 2 of his on track failures....

[Kirk]

That could be a good way around it, although there is a Nascar filter that most are now using. I can't remember the brand but will try and get it up.

 

It's not expensive and is a billet aluminium type that can be used as a screw on or as a remote option.

 

It has a zero bypass feature and flows around 30 gallons per hour iirc, it's totally re-useable/cleanable.

Best thing about it was that after each run you can just remove the outer casing and check to see if any debris is coming through. Can avoid major failure before it happens

 

Your referring to the canton filter correct?

[DARETT]

Ahh, so you must be the HP racing on the side of your car.

 

http://www.hpracing.co.uk/

 

Well a small part of it

Edited November 4, 2010 by DARETT (see edit history)

[DARETT]

Your referring to the canton filter correct?

 

That's the one

[Chris Wilson]

I'd be interested to know what you mean by "hindrance" with regards the oil squirters? Piston crown cooling is something I would want to retain on a car with increased cylinder temperatures and pressures, so it's interesting to hear their removal being recommended.

 

I would imagine one issue may be the amount of skirt cutaway needed to miss the aquirter with a longer stroke. The piston will come lower and unless a very short skirt is used it will foul without a higher cut out. Even pistons without the hollow crown of the stock cast items are cooled quite substantially by an under crown oil spray. I too would not want to lose it, but I am guessing 90% plus of these engines run on drag strips where the short duration of the run minimises thermal stress. My benchmark is if an engine will do several full race speed 20 lap events on a proper UK race circuit without ANY engine issues, it's well developed. Anything less in something other than an F1 engine is unacceptable to me.

[davej705]

My benchmark is if an engine will do several full race speed 20 lap events on a proper UK race circuit without ANY engine issues, it's well developed. Anything less in something other than an F1 engine is unacceptable to me.

 

I totally agree with this,if an engine cannot be pushed really hard reliably what is the point of doing this.

[tDR]

We are talking T6 turbos here, forget a stock engine, you need need big revs for anything bigger than 71mm imo.

 

I hear ya... but is it worth it?

 

Your T67 based stock engine setup was stupid quick, was it not? And it never let you down.... show me a built engine that ran for say 10k+ hard miles without something going majorly wrong...

 

I don't believe for one minute that any tuner / engine builder here or in the US is going to openly advertise when their 'uprated' built engines fail.

 

(/me feels like the nagging missus now!!!)

[jagman]

I totally agree with this,if an engine cannot be pushed really hard reliably what is the point of doing this.

You win!!

 

The water system is linked with the oil system and the whole thermal stability of the engine , mess around with this and no street reliability at all ...

Excess heat goes to water , once it's limit is reached , then on to oil , once it's limit is reached , on to the head and block , then things fail - sump temp is only relative to all the others and not a perfect source of data

[Miguel]

I would imagine one issue may be the amount of skirt cutaway needed to miss the aquirter with a longer stroke. The piston will come lower and unless a very short skirt is used it will foul without a higher cut out. Even pistons without the hollow crown of the stock cast items are cooled quite substantially by an under crown oil spray. I too would not want to lose it, but I am guessing 90% plus of these engines run on drag strips where the short duration of the run minimises thermal stress. My benchmark is if an engine will do several full race speed 20 lap events on a proper UK race circuit without ANY engine issues, it's well developed. Anything less in something other than an F1 engine is unacceptable to me.

 

Saves me typing what I was going to say:). As far as the logistical aspects of the squirters with strokers, all the ones I have seen can accommodate the squirters with no problems, so we can assume that a mute point. As far as removing them to promote higher oil pressures, I can only see this being valid from the point of enabling a quicker rise rate and 'possible' flow improvement to the bearings, as maximum oil pressure is governed by the pressure relief valve - this is the bit where we are told to double up the spring in it.

[JamieP]

I hear ya... but is it worth it?

 

Your T67 based stock engine setup was stupid quick, was it not? And it never let you down.... show me a built engine that ran for say 10k+ hard miles without something going majorly wrong...

 

I don't believe for one minute that any tuner / engine builder here or in the US is going to openly advertise when their 'uprated' built engines fail.

 

(/me feels like the nagging missus now!!!)

 

Mad if you think any T67 setup will come close to a T6 car, even my 76 is miles faster, with one run at the pod i was 12mph faster over the 1/4 than my best T67 time, and that was on the small hotside and 1.8 bar tune.

 

Imo its not about a built engine being prone to fail, built engines for the most have to cope with a lot more stresses, Higher revs and lots of power, if you tried to run a stock engine at my power level i would not expect it to last a single dyno pull.

 

Running lots of power costs $$$ and im happy with that as i want the power, if you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen:D

[davej705]

You win!!

 

The water system is linked with the oil system and the whole thermal stability of the engine , mess around with this and no street reliability at all ...

Excess heat goes to water , once it's limit is reached , then on to oil , once it's limit is reached , on to the head and block , then things fail - sump temp is only relative to all the others and not a perfect source of data

 

I win? What do I win?

 

Will having more oil in the system with a bigger sump and using oil coolers and uprated rads not be enough to make it reliable? I understand the sump temp not being a perfect source,can other readings be taken from other places.