Firemen to go on strike....Bonfire night

[Nic]

We still turn out world class professionals in many fields- so why do we outsource so much and continue to grow in outsourcing ? That would never have happened with union input

 

In terms of manufacturing and consumer products, it's your fault, it's my fault and everybody else's fault here, WE as a consumer are greedy and demand more for less. The only way to be able to do that is to outsource the manufacturing to developing countries who have large workforces that are prepared to do a job for an amount of money no one in this country would ever do.

 

I spent many years in children's toy development, take practically any toy, if it was manufactured in the UK rather than in China, the retail price would have to be many, many, times more.

[j_jza80]

In terms of manufacturing and consumer products, it's your fault, it's my fault and everybody else's fault here, WE as a consumer are greedy and demand more for less. The only way to be able to do that is to outsource the manufacturing to developing countries who have large workforces that are prepared to do a job for an amount of money no one in this country would ever do.

 

I spent many years in children's toy development, take practically any toy, if it was manufactured in the UK rather than in China, the retail price would have to be many, many, times more.

 

tfr7YYAHlVU

 

Nic?

[jagman]

"This smoke, mirrors and paper seem to have kept the benefit scroungers well fed"

no thats a real product (food) made by a real economy

 

"If it's only paper, then why does it matter? The wealth I refer to was in our industries, which are all but gone now, due in part to union intervention."

Because the paper relates to labour and the numbers are held as debt to be paid in the future as future labour -not by the people who created the paper - and now is so corrupted it can never be paid by the amount of labour /and commodities that exist .

 

if the wealth was in industry then who closed them? and moved to service and finance? industry provides things that people can use or be sold

 

"We set the standard by which financial accounting is done in much of the world these days." Oh dear , you mean like the derivitive market,or MBS,or the pension funds and hedge funds - what do they produce?

A invents a notional product ,which is sold to B for more ,and then to C for even more who then sells back to A , rinse and repeat ,and as long as A/B/C make a commission on each deal -result more paper with nothing to show thus corrupting some poor bastards labour ,whos actually does produce something - you now pronounce these traders as captains of industry? - crooks I call them and would hang them from lamposts ,by the balls .

 

"We still produce among the best engineers in the world" -Along side a huge population who cant spell or tell you what a 1/3 of a 1/2 is ?

[j_jza80]

"This smoke, mirrors and paper seem to have kept the benefit scroungers well fed"

no thats a real product (food) made by a real economy

food bought with money from our taxes

 

"If it's only paper, then why does it matter? The wealth I refer to was in our industries, which are all but gone now, due in part to union intervention."

Because the paper relates to labour and the numbers are held as debt to be paid in the future as future labour -not by the people who created the paper - and now is so corrupted it can never be paid by the amount of labour /and commodities that exist .

 

if the wealth was in industry then who closed them? and moved to service and finance? industry provides things that people can use or be sold

 

Thatcher announced the switch from industry to service, but this was merely stating what was already happening. Labour in our industries starting demanding higher wages... I won't give you a history lesson as you seem educated.

 

"We set the standard by which financial accounting is done in much of the world these days." Oh dear , you mean like the derivitive market,or MBS,or the pension funds and hedge funds - what do they produce?

A invents a notional product ,which is sold to B for more ,and then to C for even more who then sells back to A , rinse and repeat ,and as long as A/B/C make a commission on each deal -result more paper with nothing to show thus corrupting some poor bastards labour ,whos actually does produce something - you now pronounce these traders as captains of industry? - crooks I call them and would hang them from lamposts ,by the balls .

 

I meant the actual 'International accounting standards' (IAC) the Chairman is British, as are many of the board and contributors.

 

"We still produce among the best engineers in the world" -Along side a huge population who cant spell or tell you what a 1/3 of a 1/2 is

 

This isn't specifically a British problem. I study with people of many nationalities and basic math, physics and common sense seem to be vacant much of the time

[Gaz6002]

What happened to the good old fashioned quoting of posts? This forum is going downhill.

[jagman]

"I meant the actual 'International accounting standards' (IAC) the Chairman is British, as are many of the board and contributors. "

 

Is that the same standards as used by Greece,Spain,ireland et al .....or indeed the UK banks in total - if so theres one guy to be sacked !

 

"Thatcher announced the switch from industry to service, but this was merely stating what was already happening. Labour in our industries starting demanding higher wages... I won't give you a history lesson as you seem educated." ----

 

(so let them have debt instead)

 

I was there at the time ,and that is not the case ! - if you remove investment ,the you lose the lead, if you decide to import instead of nationally produce ,you ultimately end up with a huge deficit and debt -sound topical?

If you also leave industry you cannot simply start again.and as labour costs rise in the countries that had cheap labour ,guess what? you pay more,you box yourself in ,as you have destroyed your own industry and any future developments in that industry.

There was also the impact of north sea oil and gas and revenues ,with the hopeless predictions and use of that revenue .

Everyone was going to become a self employed citizen --- result we now have a lot of Tanning studios and nail bars ! - lets tan ourselves out of this spot then

Then the legacy of privatisation - trashed pension schemes,foreign ownership,more financial con tricks , the seeds were laid...

[Paul]

What happened to the good old fashioned quoting of posts? This forum is going downhill.

 

Racist

[Gaz6002]

Racist

 

Agoraphobic.

[j_jza80]

"I meant the actual 'International accounting standards' (IAC) the Chairman is British, as are many of the board and contributors. "

 

Is that the same standards as used by Greece,Spain,ireland et al .....or indeed the UK banks in total - if so theres one guy to be sacked !

 

"Thatcher announced the switch from industry to service, but this was merely stating what was already happening. Labour in our industries starting demanding higher wages... I won't give you a history lesson as you seem educated." ----

 

(so let them have debt instead)

 

I was there at the time ,and that is not the case ! - if you remove investment ,the you lose the lead, if you decide to import instead of nationally produce ,you ultimately end up with a huge deficit and debt -sound topical?

If you also leave industry you cannot simply start again.and as labour costs rise in the countries that had cheap labour ,guess what? you pay more,you box yourself in ,as you have destroyed your own industry and any future developments in that industry.

There was also the impact of north sea oil and gas and revenues ,with the hopeless predictions and use of that revenue .

Everyone was going to become a self employed citizen --- result we now have a lot of Tanning studios and nail bars ! - lets tan ourselves out of this spot then

Then the legacy of privatisation - trashed pension schemes,foreign ownership,more financial con tricks , the seeds were laid...

 

Are you a commie?

[Paul]

Agoraphobic.

 

No, I'm OK with spiders

[Tannhauser]

These same people have also seen us through some of the greatest financial prosperity the country has ever seen.

 

I would argue that much of the real wealth of our country left because of greedy employees and their unions many years ago. The only real wealth our country now has, which is something the current government is playing their fiddle to, is the ingenuity of our population. We still turn out world class professionals in many fields.

 

I can't see how you can claim that:

 

a) We've been going through this period of great financial prosperity

 

and simultaneously

 

b) the real wealth left our country years ago.

 

Which is it?

 

I buy Naomi Klein's analysis on the flight of manufacturing. In the west, and including the UK, it's been connected with the dramatic shift in approach to manufacturing in the largest corporations. They figured out that profits would soar if they concentrated on marketing and brand-building and divest themselves of manufacturing. It's a fundamental shift that has seen wealth ever more concentrated in the hands of fewer. You only have to look at the exponential rise in the ratio of CEO salaries: median employee salaries over the last thirty years to see how far this has gone.

 

As for the famed 'knowledge economy', that's terrifyingly precarious. Look, for example, at the huge number of indian graduates now. It would be interesting to see how many science and engineering graduates they are turning out per year. With a burgeoning middle class, that's only going to rise. With increased global connectivity, all that knowledge based stuff willeventually get outsourced too. I think we've had our day in the sun.

[Nic]

I buy Naomi Klein's analysis on the flight of manufacturing. In the west, and including the UK, it's been connected with the dramatic shift in approach to manufacturing in the largest corporations. They figured out that profits would soar if they concentrated on marketing and brand-building and divest themselves of manufacturing. It's a fundamental shift that has seen wealth ever more concentrated in the hands of fewer. You only have to look at the exponential rise in the ratio of CEO salaries: median employee salaries over the last thirty years to see how far this has gone.

 

Business A has been manufacturing in the UK but sees an opportunity to reduce their costs by moving production overseas. This means that they can reduce their retail prices and make a bigger margin.

 

The customer compares the market and sees that Business A's products are cheaper, so buys their products rather than 'another brand'. Business A increases their share of the market, increasing their profits.

 

Business B still manufacturing in the UK, it sees their market share has reduced, because the customer is buying Business A's products. To stay competitive with their competition they are forced to reduce their prices and their margins. They now have less market share and less profit. Business B continues to manufacture in the UK at lower margins and continues to lose market share. Their turn over drops they become unprofitable and Business B is forced to close.

 

Business C was in the same position as Business B, losing their market share, reducing their prices and margins. They realise the only way they can compete with Business A is to move their production overseas.

 

This snowballs, some businesses go under, other businesses move their production overseas, until you get to the position we are in today where the UK has lost most of it's production.

 

I went through this with ELC, when I started in 96 less than 25% of their products came from the Far East, the company was in a very bad way and had just made an annual loss of £14M. When I left in 2004 around 85% of their products came from the Far East and the company made an annual profit of £14M. They are now struggling again because of the likes of Tescos who are squeezing the market, by buying cheap products from the Far East and selling them at very low margins.

 

We are now all brainwashed by marketing (spit) companies into giving our money to big business who dangle cheaper and cheaper carrots in front of us all.

[Nic]

Just to add, Lego has a huge fully automated robotised factory in Denmark which must have been a massive investment. They have recently moved a lot of their production to China to cut costs.

 

You know it's too late when even automated manufacturing in Europe cannot compete in the market.

[jagman]

Business D - is German based , invests in quality staff , pays them , and produces quality products finer than A/B/C - sales are good as quality is unmatched and due long life and reliability - this leads to more and advanced products , that ABC can no longer compete with and have some component parts outsourced but using the german standard s on quality and in a german owned factory using german management but cheaper labour .

In tough times the outsourcing is withdrawn or used as leverage for trade deals - read protection .

[Tannhauser]

Just to add, Lego has a huge fully automated robotised factory in Denmark which must have been a massive investment. They have recently moved a lot of their production to China to cut costs.

 

You know it's too late when even automated manufacturing in Europe cannot compete in the market.

 

Wow, I didn't know that. How depressing. Must have been those Danish unions.

 

Business D - is German based , invests in quality staff , pays them , and produces quality products finer than A/B/C - sales are good as quality is unmatched and due long life and reliability - this leads to more and advanced products , that ABC can no longer compete with and have some component parts outsourced but using the german standard s on quality and in a german owned factory using german management but cheaper labour .

In tough times the outsourcing is withdrawn or used as leverage for trade deals - read protection .

 

Out of interest, I've been reading about 'Marlboro Friday' as a pivotal moment for large companies. The argument goes something like this: Prior to 1993,the view had always been one you've set out. Sales will be good if a quality product is made. Consumers will pay a premium over dirt cheap generics to gt a quality brand. Then in April 1993, Philip Morris (who make Marlboro) announced they were cutting prices to compete with the value brands. Their stock (and all the big brand products) plummeted. The death of the brand was announced. Advertising budgets slumped.

 

This turned out to be ironic, because it was after that time that companies like Nike concentrated almost exclusively on marketing the brand as an entity, as an aspiration, a life-style. The actual manufacturing was irrelevant, an inconvenience. They had turned themselves into dream merchants. Profits soared. By 2000, companies like Ford were regarded by many as dinosaurs, stuck with 'lumpy goods' and outmoded ideas like a permanent home-grown workforce.

 

Of course, this hasn't happened everywhere, and there are still Company D s around, but I think it's true of many bigger companies. It's another invidious American import.

[j_jza80]

I can't see how you can claim that:

 

a) We've been going through this period of great financial prosperity

 

and simultaneously

 

b) the real wealth left our country years ago.

 

Which is it?

 

I meant the country has been doing well financially, but without manufacturing and industry our economy is more vulnerable. Surely diversity is the key to coping with hard financial times?

 

With the Chinese and Indian economies booming it will be interesting to see if there's a significant shift in manufacturing away from them in the forseeable future.

 

As has been mentioned before in this thread, the Chinese procuring precious metals at the rate they are should be a cause for concern.

[Nic]

Business D - is German based , invests in quality staff , pays them , and produces quality products finer than A/B/C - sales are good as quality is unmatched and due long life and reliability - this leads to more and advanced products , that ABC can no longer compete with and have some component parts outsourced but using the german standard s on quality and in a german owned factory using german management but cheaper labour .

In tough times the outsourcing is withdrawn or used as leverage for trade deals - read protection .

 

Very true, they invested wisely into design, manufacturing and marketing at the right time and turned themselves into premium brands, which customers are willing to pay a premium for.

 

Businesses ABC could easily take one of their cars though, reverse engineer it and may be able to produce the same product more cheaply. So Business D cannot stand still and will always have to invest in new innovations, quality, brand marketing and cutting their manufacturing costs to stay ahead. I think the gap will narrow, the key is whether the consumer will continue to be willing to pay more for that premium brand.

[jagman]

Very true, they invested wisely into design, manufacturing and marketing at the right time and turned themselves into premium brands, which customers are willing to pay a premium for.

 

Businesses ABC could easily take one of their cars though, reverse engineer it and may be able to produce the same product more cheaply. So Business D cannot stand still and will always have to invest in new innovations, quality, brand marketing and cutting their manufacturing costs to stay ahead. I think the gap will narrow, the key is whether the consumer will continue to be willing to pay more for that premium brand.

 

 

True , but as well as quality products they created a mindset of quality within their country and people only buy German products.

The investing stretched to all aspects of infrstructure - schools,higher learning,roads,rail,factories , housing near factories etc.

AND (this is relevent to the firemen) the ability through wages for the people to actually afford the products they made!,coupled with affordable housing Via a sustainable and controlled rental Market .

Unlike UK there was no booms/ bubbles and debt slavery .

The other trick company D has is control of Money.

The Euro is a busted flush , they knew that when they joined , it's the control of money that runs the world , the far east does not have this , so they themselves are controlled.

In Germanys case they will withdraw from the Euro in the end , they have a 40% export Market trapped in Europe to sell their quality products.

Once the Germans leave the Euro , then the Euro collapses and the southern neighbours can become the new ( read old) cheap labour source to outsource elements of manufacturing.

China/India despite dirt cheap labour in abundance still have to add transport costs , the rise in oil will negate any benefits in labour.

Nothing involving money happens by chance A commie,what and have to live in a country , where the state owns all the banks,and people should live where the government says , kids have no job prospects , and the elite have duck houses and moats, and governments line their own pockets,and Strikes forbidden ,and millions dependent on handouts - no way , ...oh wait

 

 

 

 

 

n, it's not oops we've by accident destroyed the worlds economy,it's more like we play pool on a table that is tilted, all the balls end up in one pocket, no matter how you play, how many play ,how many balls are used,or what rules you adopt - the balls always end up in the same pocket!

China is good at games and they are trying to tilt the table back , expect a bunfight !!!

[jagman]

Bloody I phones ! They don't work as you wish when you have fingers like pigs tits !- there is a limit to how many times I can type things- probably made in china !-LOL

[Nic]

China/India despite dirt cheap labour in abundance still have to add transport costs , the rise in oil will negate any benefits in labour.

 

It's ironic that with the wealth the likes of China and India have made from manufacturing Our products, they are now the biggest emerging markets for new cars. With China having a population of just over 1.3 billion and nearly 1.2 billion in India, any car manufacturer only needs to capture a small percentage of those markets to make a LOT of money.

 

With your argument about the rise in oil prices and transportation costs, where would it make sense to make all those cars?

 

I don't like it any more than you do BTW.

[Paul]

Businesses ABC could easily take one of their cars though, reverse engineer it and may be able to produce the same product more cheaply.

 

Not as easy as people think, I test products for the CE mark and 'copies' of top brand safety/PPE related goods come from China in the hope of getting the CE mark and allowing them to sell in Europe.

From the outset the quality difference is shocking in many cases, they get it so wrong alot of the time as they haven't evolved with the product and have no R&D history and don't understand the materials used.

When they get fails you then explain the area and you're opinion as to why it's failed and they then re-submit samples. Again, because they don't know the product or the design well enough they normally send in new samples from the exact same batch as the failed ones in the hope that the law of averages will get them a CE mark, bit like a lottery

[Nic]

Not as easy as people think, I test products for the CE mark and 'copies' of top brand safety/PPE related goods come from China in the hope of getting the CE mark and allowing them to sell in Europe.

From the outset the quality difference is shocking in many cases, they get it so wrong alot of the time as they haven't evolved with the product and have no R&D history and don't understand the materials used.

When they get fails you then explain the area and you're opinion as to why it's failed and they then re-submit samples. Again, because they don't know the product or the design well enough they normally send in new samples from the exact same batch as the failed ones in the hope that the law of averages will get them a CE mark, bit like a lottery

 

I don't doubt what you say, having worked in the pre school toy industry with all the very stringent safety regulations that go with it, I know how difficult it can be to get the quality right - it use to be the bane of my life!

 

I also worked with some very good Chinese engineers who over the years learnt a lot and who developed very high standards and who were technical brilliant. There are a lot of very good manufacturers there who have learnt a lot over the years working with Western customers. I'm pretty sure that the right company with the right people involved (be they Western or Chinese) could reverse engineer a German made car.

[RedM]

Not as easy as people think, I test products for the CE mark and 'copies' of top brand safety/PPE related goods come from China in the hope of getting the CE mark and allowing them to sell in Europe.

 

Paul,

 

Sorry to make it feel like work at the weekend but do you know anything about only being able to sell sledge-hammers in the UK if they have a BS kite-mark or the CE one?

[Paul]

Sorry mate, don't think we do these on our site.

If it has a CE mark then it should be OK to sell in the UK, the Kitemark is something BSI do over and above the CE mark that requires regular audits and tests to be carried out.

 

There will be a particular standard relating to them, do a google search.

What you doing, trying to sell them?

[RedM]

Sorry mate, don't think we do these on our site.

If it has a CE mark then it should be OK to sell in the UK, the Kitemark is something BSI do over and above the CE mark that requires regular audits and tests to be carried out.

 

There will be a particular standard relating to them, do a google search.

What you doing, trying to sell them?

 

Yeah. We sell a US brand that has a reputation for quality (apparently). A customer kicked off that they don't have any BS marks or the like and said we shouldn't be selling them.