Firemen to go on strike....Bonfire night

[Tony]

Are we led to believe that they are not striking for pension, pay, 3 years of pay freeze, job security, closure of fire stations.......instead they are striking for the safety of the London...

 

sounds so similar to the tact that the RMT unions use when doing on tube strikes...

 

Even if the Govt. does decide that it needs to shut down fire stations at the expense of a poorer service - so be it. I am fairly sure they have done their sums and realise that they cannot sustain this level of service any more.

 

Thank labour for their 10 years of raping the country dry - time to pay up.

 

Time to bring some efficiencies into public services and invest in areas that desperately need investment. if that means some others get the chop then unfortunately that is the reality of the situation we are in. no one has the right to a job for life - those days are long gone.

 

WRONG thank the anti-christ thatcher for stripping this country of its industry

[RedM]

Are we led to believe that they are not striking for pension, pay, life of pay freeze, job security, closure of fire stations.......instead they are striking for the safety of the London...

 

sounds so similar to the tact that the RMT unions use when doing on tube strikes...

 

Even if the Govt. does decide that it needs to shut down fire stations at the expense of a poorer service - so be it. I am fairly sure they have done their sums and realise that they cannot sustain this level of service any more.

 

Thank labour for their 10 years of raping the country dry - time to pay up.

 

Time to bring some efficiencies into public services and invest in areas that desperately need investment. if that means some others get the chop then unfortunately that is the reality of the situation we are in. no one has the right to a job for life - those days are long gone.

 

With regard to efficiency I think what is really needed is a careful plan that ensures the following:

 

- Arson is carried out in designated areas that are easily accessible by the future depleted fire service.

 

- House fires are attended in order of convenience along a carefully plotted route. People will come to accept that there may be a delay in having a fire put out until a vehicle is in their area.

 

- No car may travel at a speed which, in the event of a crash, will require the attendance of the fire brigade. This should save a fortune.

 

- Everyone must be able to inspect their electrical equipment and wiring for faults. If your house burns down because of this then it'll be your own fault.

 

- Cats should be banned along with any other animals capable of climbing trees that they may not be able to descend from.

 

It's a start eh?

[TLicense]

Thank labour for their 10 years of raping the country dry - time to pay up.

 

Time to bring some efficiencies into public services and invest in areas that desperately need investment. if that means some others get the chop then unfortunately that is the reality of the situation we are in. no one has the right to a job for life - those days are long gone.

 

The problem is the government have done an arse backwards job of prioritising where cuts should be made.

We can simplify the point massively.

What would you rather have, a cap on tuition fees, or firefighters working on the 5th of November?

[Tannhauser]

Strikes - one of labours great legacy's and the crap that we are in one of their very best.

 

About time people realise that we are living through tough economical times and that changes are inevitable whether we like it or not.

 

the days of being spoon fed need to come to an end.....this welfare state is on borrowed time.

 

I don't necessarily agree with every measure that the Govt is taking to keep expenditure in check however applaud them for trying.

 

imi

 

In what sense are strikes one of Labour's legacies? Do you mean the last Labour government? Or some previous Labour government? Either way, I don't see it. Strikes have been around since the Egyptians. There have been strikes under all governments, and the very worst post-war ones - to my recollection - were under Heath's conservative government. Post-Thatcher, there's really been very little strike disruption.

 

As for the 'current mess' being Labour's legacy, I'm not sure. It seems to me that plenty of other countries have suffered fom a global crash. For example, our deficit went from -2.7% GDP in 2007 to -11.3% GDP in 2009. That looks bad, but in the same period, Spain went from a surplus (+ 1.9) to -11.2%. Iceland went from + 5.4% to - 9.1%. Ireland went from 0.1% to -14.3%. And so on.

 

You could say 'ah, but the banks are costing us 85 billion, that's Labour's fault'. Well, I'd be the first to admit that my understanding of this stuff is pretty basic. However, I take the line that a lot of the losses were due to the banks being allowed to make highly speculative investments, and that in turn is due to light-touch regulation. But which party is traditionally associated with laissez-faire let-the-markets-decide economics? That's at the heart of Conservative policy. So I can't see what they would have done differently.

 

I agree that there need to be some cuts, but I see the current response as a mainly political/ideological one.

[RedM]

WRONG thank the anti-christ thatcher for stripping this country of its industry

 

Amen. I was deeply saddened to hear earlier this week that she is recovering from her recent ill health.

[Tony]

With regard to efficiency I think what is really needed is a careful plan that ensures the following:

 

- Arson is carried out in designated areas that are easily accessible by the future depleted fire service.

 

- House fires are attended in order of convenience along a carefully plotted route. People will come to accept that there may be a delay in having a fire put out until a vehicle is in their area.

 

- No car may travel at a speed which, in the event of a crash, will require the attendance of the fire brigade. This should save a fortune.

 

- Everyone must be able to inspect their electrical equipment and wiring for faults. If your house burns down because of this then it'll be your own fault.

 

- Cats should be banned along with any other animals capable of climbing trees that they may not be able to descend from.

 

It's a start eh?

 

lets it do it the torie way, you only get emergancy services if can pay for it;)

[imi]

WRONG thank the anti-christ thatcher for stripping this country of its industry

 

Think it was a blessing in disguise......she knew we didn't stand a chance competing with our neighbours let alone emerging global manufacturing economies like China and India.

 

What people don't seem to understand that industrial strike is fairly selfish and only alienates the general public from whatever cause they are striking for. They only contribute in strangling this countries economy even more.

[RedM]

lets it do it the torie way, you only get emergancy services if can pay for it;)

 

They do that in the US.

http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/local/Firefighters-watch-as-home-burns-to-the-ground-104052668.html

[Tony]

Amen. I was deeply saddened to hear earlier this week that she is recovering from her recent ill health.

 

Yea god dont want HER up there either:D

[RedM]

Yea god dont want HER up there either:D

 

Surely you mean Satan didn't want her down there lowering the tone.

[Tony]

Think it was a blessing in disguise......she knew we didn't stand a chance competing with our neighbours let alone emerging global manufacturing economies like China and India.

 

What people don't seem to understand that industrial strike is fairly selfish and only alienates the general public from whatever cause they are striking for. They only contribute in strangling this countries economy even more.

 

Wrong again im general public and i am on there side

[imi]

They do that in the US.

http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/local/Firefighters-watch-as-home-burns-to-the-ground-104052668.html

 

surprised the 911 service even answered the call, with caller ID I would have expected the system to hang up automatically.

[TLicense]

What people don't seem to understand that industrial strike is fairly selfish and only alienates the general public from whatever cause they are striking for. They only contribute in strangling this countries economy even more.

 

The general public would only be alienated if they didn't agree with the reason for striking.

[kjgreen3]

Simplest answer to sorting this situation it is generate more revenue, obviously public sector services are needed but don't generate a profit. Rightly so, otherwise it would become a business and be run improperly to suit its investors.

 

So I think if health and safety legislation was reduced to

"common sense" levels and the sue first ask questions later culture imported from america was abolished (compensation levels reduced to fair amounts depending on claiment, claiment's situation etc) then companies would start making a profit as liabilty insurance would come down making operating/start-up costs less.

 

Britain's industry may come back, we may start manufacturing and exporting at huge levels again, become a global player, attract large scale foreign investments. Rely less on the banking sector, take away some of there power etc.

 

Off topic I know but in an ar*e about t*t kinda way, the government would have the money to pay the public sector emergency service, no silly hours, low pay, 25% Police cuts.

[imi]

Wrong again im general public and i am on there side

 

sorry, I must insist on correcting you, I am not wrong - I have a differing opinion.

[RedM]

surprised the 911 service even answered the call, with caller ID I would have expected the system to hang up automatically.

 

There you go then. Give the Condemns a call and propose that as an efficiency measure.

[Tony]

Surely you mean Satan didn't want her down there lowering the tone.

 

Ok nobody wants her:D

[RedM]

Imi,

 

Do you disagree with their reasons for striking or do you disagree with them wanting to strike? For example, I might not agree with their reasons but I do believe that they should be able to protest. Like censorship, I may not like what you say but I'd always defend your right to say it.

 

FWIW I agree with them entirely.

[TLicense]

So I think if health and safety legislation was reduced to

"common sense" levels and the sue first ask questions later culture imported from america was abolished (compensation levels reduced to fair amounts depending on claiment, claiment's situation etc) then companies would start making a profit as liabilty insurance would come down making operating/start-up costs less.

 

Having done courses on H&S, it may surprise you that the health and safety legislation is all based upon what is "reasonably practicable" already.

The problem comes when people who don't understand their own responsibilities on overstep the mark. Teachers who ban kids from playing conkers for example - there is NO legislation for this, it's just teachers being overcautious.

 

But I take your point. If people knew what their responsibilities were, and weren't overzealous thinking that they had to take everything to the nth degree otherwise they would be sued, then industry would no doubt save many millions.

[imi]

Imi,

 

Do you disagree with their reasons for striking or do you disagree with them wanting to strike? For example, I might not agree with their reasons but I do believe that they should be able to protest. Like censorship, I may not like what you say but I'd always defend your right to say it.

 

FWIW I agree with them entirely.

 

I dont even agree with the Tube strikes so there is no way I would agree with emergency services like the fire service going on strike - I think it should be illegal (atleast for the emergency services).

 

I am all for them to protest however holding the country to ransom is just not on.

[RedM]

I dont even agree with the Tube strikes so there is no way I would agree with emergency services like the fire service going on strike - I think it should be illegal (atleast for the emergency services).

 

I am all for them to protest however holding the country to ransom is just not on.

 

How do you suggest they protest? Maybe they could march through London because that certainly worked for the nearly one million anti-war protesters a few years back.

[imi]

How do you suggest they protest? Maybe they could march through London because that certainly worked for the nearly one million anti-war protesters a few years back.

 

With that logic in hindsight what should have the anti-war protestors have done?

 

Is it a case of the ends justify the means.....

[kjgreen3]

Having done courses on H&S, it may surprise you that the health and safety legislation is all based upon what is "reasonably practicable" already.

The problem comes when people who don't understand their own responsibilities on overstep the mark. Teachers who ban kids from playing conkers for example - there is NO legislation for this, it's just teachers being overcautious.

 

But I take your point. If people knew what their responsibilities were, and weren't overzealous thinking that they had to take everything to the nth degree otherwise they would be sued, then industry would no doubt save many millions.

 

I Agree but ultimately one person's actions can ripple. Example I used to work for Kier (large construction company). Because one apprentice tiler kept cutting his hand on the tile saw (3 or 4 accident reports i 2 months NONE requiring more than a plaster) a default to gloves policy was brought in and every single operative from Electrician to H&S supervisor had to wear gloves appropriate to their job role. Our stores stocked 30 different types of 10 different sizes (so 300 in total x number of operatives, and the fact new gloves were ordered daily by each operative due to them being damaged/lost etc). Suddenly the companies expenditure was down 100K a month! for one fools actions, for the rest of the companies operating life. Obviously affecting future pay rises, pensions, higher tenders for jobs - less chance of getting them, etc.

 

That muppet should have been sacked or trained in the correct way to use a tile saw. Talk about the butterfly effect running at full force.

[RedM]

With that logic in hindsight what should have the anti-war protestors have done?

 

Is it a case of the ends justify the means.....

 

I think the irony in my post is lost on you. I marched that day. Really thought it would achieve something. It didn't. A million people really could be 'wrong'.

[Andy-No-Knee]

Well if you want the truth....

 

I am an officer in the LFB.

 

For the last 5 years there have been some 'discussions' (I say that because they were not in any way classed as in depth serious ones, they were 'So what do you think about this...' type of discussion.) about changing the shift hours from a 9hr day and 15hr night to an equal shift of 12 hrs for both.

 

The union asked its members 5 years ago and it was a rousing NO vote to the change, for various reasons.

 

(Just some of them)

Personnel.

People with children will not be able to get child care for that length of time, or rather longer as they have to go to work and return as well.

 

Time of travel. One of the reasons for was given that they wanted to move the change over of watches to a time where there was no/less rush hour. It was pointed out that to do that meant less public transport available to be used, and the impact of this on time of travel/takes longer increasing time for child care/away from family/EU rest hours between shifts etc.

 

General Impact on family life.

The changes and times given were shown in the Brigades own report to be very detrimental to family life/recruitment and retention of women and ethnic minorities. (Women I can understand...but the others???)

 

Business Case for.

The Brigade then gave a business case for changing the shifts and the start finish time, which was severely flawed. All to so call improvements in productivity that there were after could all be achieved by changing work routines while still keeping the shifts the same. This was shown to them but they still disagreed and wanted the change.

 

This then created an impasse which lasted for some time, about 2 years IIRC.

 

Then a 'secret' Brigade document was sent to the union showing that the real plan for the 12hr shifts was so that fire stations could be closed at nights, reducing costs, freeing up manpower that could then be redeployed in the Brigade, and as the shifts were equal they could be sent onto days easily to ensure the correct hours are worked.

 

That didn’t bode well for a few reasons.

1. The Public.

You expect us to be there when you need us, by law the 1st machine has to be there within 5 mins of the call, the second within 8. This was changed ever so quietly to say it should be not it will be.

 

2. Less fire happen at night, but more deaths from fire occur at night.

 

3. Because buildings are empty or the occupiers are asleep it means fires will burn longer and be more developed before they are detected. This creates added danger to anyone in the building or for those trying to fight the fire as the fire is harder to tackle.

 

4. Add into the equation now that stations are closed so FF's have to travel further to get to the fire taking even longer...means the fire is even bigger, more developed and therefore far more dangerous, and there is a far higher probability that the occupants will be dead unless a smoke alarm has been fitted and works and actuates to alert them of the fire.

 

Then the governing body of the Fire Brigade changed from a mainly Labour run to a Tory, headed by an odious reptile called Brian Coleman, who for some unknown reason hates the LFB with a passion. For years he has been trying to chip away at the service, he tried to get the museum shut saying ‘When you have seen one old helmet you have seen them all…’ Nice huh!

 

When that happened he made a deal with the company that owns the fire appliances, Asset Co. it was a 12 million pound deal for them to provide ‘Emergency Cover’ in times of need, and it was supposed to be for any further terrorist events where the Brigade is over stretched.

 

He then got a vote passed that

1. Froze FF’s pay for 2 year.

2. Gave the Commissioner of the LFB a 28% pay rise.

3. Gave himself and all the other members of the authority an £8k pay rise.

 

He now had them bought and paid for.

 

He and the commissioner, Ron Dobson then suddenly (and I mean VERY suddenly) started talks on the changes after a hiatus of about a year…. After 2 or 3 meetings where not much was covered, nothing ‘big’ just peripherals’ like stand by duties expenses (a stand by duty is when a FF gets sent from one station to another to cover a temporary gap) and other small issues.

 

They then hit us with a Section 188.

This is a legal document that basically says ‘Agree to what we want or we sack you’.

In effect they are giving us legal notice that they are cancelling out current contracts of employment and are about to issue us with new ones. If we refuse to sign he new ones we are out of a job, no redundancy or anything. Nice huh!?!?!

 

So in short, the strike is to force the employers to drop the section 188 and to negotiate not dictate.

 

As soon as the 188 is dropped then the strikes will stop, but until it is then the strikes will get longer and longer.

 

A bit more info for you…

 

On Saturday the first strike, the Brigade started the day with 27 machines to cover London (normally 115) and 1 rescue unit (normally 15)

By 1400 they were down to 11.

4 had accidents, eg hitting trees, other road users.

1 was arrested by the Police for going to MacDonalds to get lunch on the Blue Lights.

The rest were removed because the crews realised they had been lied to and did not want to be strike breakers.

 

A small flat fire in Millwall was attended by the scabs, and on arrival they refused to go into the fire, so stayed outside and squirted water through the windows. The fire spread and ended up gutting 4 flats and the roof of the building.

 

A small smouldering fire in Enfield spread to the entire roof and top floor of the house, because when the clowns turned up it took them 30 mins!!! To remember how to get water out of the fire engine! Then when they had water there was a crew in the front garden and a crew in the back garden squirting water on each other by shooting it over the house and totally missing the fire!!!

 

The commissioner states that the clowns attended 49 fires!!! He doesn’t bother to mention that they were called to 81 and didn’t bother, or were unable to attend the rest. Some because the Romanian drivers could not understand the sat nav directions, one because they refused to leave the forecourt of Romford Police Station, others because they just got plain lost.