The Defence Review

[jonc]

Dont forget Jon youre gaining 24 wonderful Merlins

 

I didn't see that in the review:D Like I said we got off lightly compared to our RAF brethren. Merlin have been with us for years now and they still scare the S**t out of me!!!!

 

Infact, quite how the Battle of Britain memorial flight, or the Red Arrows have avoided these cuts is beyond me (but most welcome )

 

Totally agree this area needs to be maintained either by the government or corporate input.

[Swampy442]

The Reds have had any amount of corporate offers but while its under MOD control theres no chance in hell any sponsorship will be allowed

[garethr]

Looks like the Government has forgotten lessons learned during the Falklands war

 

In fact, other than attacking the Argentinian mainland with cruise missiles, we will have no deterrent in that area of the world.

 

...I bet Argentina attacks the Falklands the day after Ark Royal is decommissioned...

 

Well, we built that nice airfield that will take "normal" fast jets, so we might as well let them use it.

 

(Do they actually have the capability any more?)

[heckler]

The Reds have had any amount of corporate offers but while its under MOD control theres no chance in hell any sponsorship will be allowed

 

I always thought that the Red's were funded or partly funded by BAe systems? - if this is the case, since BAe have lost the nimrods... will they cut funding in other areas? Reds?

[Godmutha]

I always thought that the Red's were funded or partly funded by BAe systems? - if this is the case, since BAe have lost the nimrods... will they cut funding in other areas? Reds?

 

Nope... the Reds are 100% MoD. The aircraft are BAE Hawks, but not funded by.....

[Swampy442]

Well, we built that nice airfield that will take "normal" fast jets, so we might as well let them use it.

 

(Do they actually have the capability any more?)

 

The Argies couldnt fight anyone at the mo, theyre in a worse state than us. There was a big hoo ha when the RAF phased out the Tornado F3s and replaced them with spangly new Eurofighters

 

Nope... the Reds are 100% MoD. The aircraft are BAE Hawks, but not funded by.....

 

BAe fund all the tours they do as its a way to sell Hawks to other nations, but all the UK stuff is from their own budget.

[hogmaw]

We really are now utterly reliant on our alliances to keep us safe from invasion.

 

Invasion from who? Somali pirates? Afghan immigrants? Aliens?

[hogmaw]

mark my words! I bet Argentina attacks the falklands the day after Ark Royal is decommissioned.

 

Mark your words? I bet your car against mine!

[bigbloodyturbo]

Invasion from who? Somali pirates? Afghan immigrants? Aliens?

 

Ze Germans, obviously

[Nodalmighty]

Invasion from who? Somali pirates? Afghan immigrants? Aliens?

 

This is what I'm thinking. Germany and Japan have had a limited armed forces for years, nobody's invaded them.

[stevie_b]

Invasion from who? Somali pirates? Afghan immigrants? Aliens?

 

A good point. The type of threat that the UK faces has changed enormously in the last 20-30 years, as we all know. The govt could spend money to defend against all types of threat, but that no doubt would be hugely expensive. So, is it an ICBM attack from a rogue state? Could be. Invasion by a massive armed force? Unlikely at the moment. Guerilla-style warfare? Possibly.

 

There's a very real chance that the govt makes cuts in a part of the Armed Forces that turn out to have been needed a few months/years down the line. The critics will shout, "I told you so!", but that's with the benefit of hindsight.

[Digsy]

Does "scrapped" mean actually taken to peices and sold to pikeys or mothballed?

 

 

 

Don't forget that the Vulcan bomber was out of service when the Falklands kicked off, but was quickly reactivated when it was deemed to be the only mchine for the job.

[Nodalmighty]

Don't forget that the Vulcan bomber was out of service when the Falklands kicked off, but was quickly reactivated when it was deemed to be the only mchine for the job.

 

I was lucky enough to see this fly at Fairford last year. It was worth the soaking just for that. I didn't realise how agile it was for big plane. I also got to see my favourite plane the A10, now that is a gun

[Swampy442]

Depends, generally scrapped means just that, scrapped but others are disposed, as gate guardians, training aids, museums etc

[dangerous brain]

A good point. The type of threat that the UK faces has changed enormously in the last 20-30 years, as we all know. The govt could spend money to defend against all types of threat, but that no doubt would be hugely expensive. So, is it an ICBM attack from a rogue state? Could be. Invasion by a massive armed force? Unlikely at the moment. Guerilla-style warfare? Possibly.

 

There's a very real chance that the govt makes cuts in a part of the Armed Forces that turn out to have been needed a few months/years down the line. The critics will shout, "I told you so!", but that's with the benefit of hindsight.

 

And the sleeping beast that was the eastern block has been slowly recuperating its own financial position. It would only take a staunch old school leadership change there to plunge the entirety of the rest of Europe into dire peril. They've been raking in money from their gas and oil reserves, and enjoyed no press on their military undertakings as long as the middle east has grabbed the title of "the latest enemy".

Admittedly we are already being financially invaded so there is little or no interest in our country from any of our hereditary enemies, there's no point in invading a country that you already bought most of is there?

Like I said we are now reliant on our alliances to prevent full scale invasion, which I suppose is a strength in itself but we've always been a self reliant nation. Sadly we no longer are.

[j_jza80]

This is what I'm thinking. Germany and Japan have had a limited armed forces for years, nobody's invaded them.

 

The Americans still have a reasonable force in Japan and Germany, which could be supplemented quickly.

[SupraStar 3000]

Mark your words? I bet your car against mine!

 

Deal!!!!!

 

My fiat Uno 45 against your Supra.

 

"Don't invade us Argentinaaaaa

The truth is, we never had air supremacy

All through those dog fights

That mad harrier force

Its now been scraped

Do keep your distance"

[Nodalmighty]

The Americans still have a reasonable force in Japan and Germany, which could be supplemented quickly.

 

Handy if they are the ones doing the invading (but then they don't have any oil do they?)

[j_jza80]

Handy if they are the ones doing the invading (but then they don't have any oil do they?)

 

[garethr]

Don't forget that the Vulcan bomber was out of service when the Falklands kicked off, but was quickly reactivated when it was deemed that RAF willy-waving was required

 

EFA

 

The Harriers did more damage to the airfield than the Vulcans did (leaving aside the mission that had to abort because someone left a window open and the bombs that weren't armed). The RAF raids scored one hit (just) on the runway.

 

IIRC someone worked out that the fuel used by the Vulcans and their refuelling tankers would have powered something like 750 Harrier sorties delivering over 2000 bombs.

 

MOD waste isn't a new phenomenon.

[SupraStar 3000]

EFA

 

The Harriers did more damage to the airfield than the Vulcans did (leaving aside the mission that had to abort because someone left a window open and the bombs that weren't armed). The RAF raids scored one hit (just) on the runway.

 

IIRC someone worked out that the fuel used by the Vulcans and their refuelling tankers would have powered something like 750 Harrier sorties delivering over 2000 bombs.

 

MOD waste isn't a new phenomenon.

 

Have you read Sea Harrier over the Falklands by Cdr 'Sharkey'Ward too

[garethr]

Have you read Sea Harrier over the Falklands by Cdr 'Sharkey' Ward too

Not for about 15 years, but you're right, that's probably where I read it.

 

Interesting book. Perhaps the Government should take it out of the library.

[Swampy442]

And in the spending review its been anounced that theyre slashing over 2 billion off defence but adding over 2 billion to overseas aid. WTF?? So basically what theyre saying is helping corrupt foreign governments is more important than defence or the Police etc. Staggering.

[dangerous brain]

Well that is the stupid country we live in and why financially we are screwed. They could significantly reduce our national debt by stopping overseas aid until we can afford it. Its a bit like having no job and giving your dole money to the homeless people thereby making yourself homeless as you can't afford your rent anymore!!!!

[Digsy]

EFA

 

The Harriers did more damage to the airfield than the Vulcans did (leaving aside the mission that had to abort because someone left a window open and the bombs that weren't armed). The RAF raids scored one hit (just) on the runway.

 

IIRC someone worked out that the fuel used by the Vulcans and their refuelling tankers would have powered something like 750 Harrier sorties delivering over 2000 bombs.

 

MOD waste isn't a new phenomenon.

 

That wasn't really the point of my post - rather to point out that if the need arises a government can very quickly change its mind on something.

But since you raised it...

A Sea Harrier can carry up to 5000kg of munitions, which includes unguided bombs. Assuming thats up to 5 1000 pounders, it would have taken 4 Sea Harriers to complete one Black Buck mission simply by comparing numbers of bombs dropped. The aim of Black Buck One was to cut the runway in two to render it unusable by fast jets. Maybe some military planner decided that a lone Vulcan carrying 21 unguided (but automatically released) 1000lb bombs in a single long stick had a better chance of success than a sortie of 4 Sea Harriers all trying to cut the runway using less accurate bomb sticks a quarter of the length? Seems logical to me. Black Buck One did indeed land one bomb in the center of the runway, thereby achieving its mission objective in a single sortie. Subsequent missions hit the runway ends, rendering it impossible to extend the runway in either direction. The runway was repaired (poorly) within 24 hours, but the runway wasn't used by fast jets for the rest of the conflict.

I'm having trouble finding out how many Sea Harriers were in the Falklands in total, but the number seems to be between 20 and 28. There were 7 Black Buck missions in total, so (again in terms of number of bombs dropped) it would have taken the entire Sea Harrier force to achieve what the Vulcans did. I'm not saying they couldn't have done it, but I'm guessing they were needed to do other jobs - namely CAP for the task force. Their ground attack role was secondary, and the only two lost to enemy fire were in these missions.

If I want to undo a nut, and make absolutely sure I undo it first go, I'll use a breaker bar rather than waste my time trying bigger and bigger spanners until I either succeed or skin my knuckles trying. I reckon the MOD decided the Vulcan was the right tool for the mission and based on the (admittedly small) amount of research I have done I think they were correct. Wasteful maybe, but since when have wars ever been economical?

And the Vulcan's window failed to seal properly. It wasn't "left open".

 

Anyway, inter-armed forces bickering seems pointless to me. The Vulcans did their job. The Sea Harriers did their job. We won. Hopefully we are all on the same side.