Guest MarkC Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Hello to all. My name is Mark Colby; I'm the system architect, embedded software engineer and custom silicon designer behind the Life Racing and Syvecs ECUs. It's great to see people using them and getting good results, but that's not really why I'm here! It's been pointed out to me that there is some question over the relationship and relative abilities of the Life Racing and Syvecs products and I've been asked to clear that up. I will try to find time to revist this thread occasionally to answer any questions posted, but my time is extremely pressured currently so please don't take a delayed response as a slight! I've been at the sharp end of motorsport ECU design since 1995 (before that I was working on avionics and radar amongst other things). I was a founding partner of Life Racing in 2002. The F88 ECU was Life's first product and is still it's core device, having been under constant development since it first ran in 2003, with perhaps 300 firmware releases and numerous hardware improvements and extensions in that time. The principle with the F88 is to strive always for the most accurate control, as required by highly stressed engines such as a high-boost high-compression restricted-intake WRC or Le Mans engines, and low-inertia engines such as Superbikes or rotaries. With a little slaved IO the F88 will happily control a twin-turbo, twin drive-by-wire, multi-point injection V8, with full knock control, traction control and paddle shift control all built in - and it often does The guys behind Syvecs have been using Life Racing ECUs with great results since the get-go. Pat in particular is the most technically adept guy I have encountered in the general after-market arena. They wanted an ECU that met after-market needs and which could utilise the same ECU core with different OEM connectors. We make the S6 for them for that purpose. They have a generic-connector version and a number of plug-and-play solutions, with more in the pipeline. To be clear : the S6 has precisely the same core hardware, core software and custom silicon as the highest specification F88. The engine control fundamentals in these ECUs are identical. So are many of the key strategies, such as knock control. Improvements made to one are often also made available in the other, and it is not always one-way traffic; some strategies have appeared in the S6 first. Indeed it is arguable that the S6 boost control strategy is more flexible for after market vehicles currently than the F88's is. There is absolutely no intent that the S6 have inferior control, nor does it. Incidentally the same is true of all the reduced-cost F88 variants (F88R's hold lap records in Irish Superbike and Isle of Man TT victories). The difference between the ECUs is mainly the number and types of inputs and outputs and a few strategy differences related to that. Which ECU you choose to run is really a matter of which is most suitable for your project. For example if I was running a relatively standard (albeit high powered) Subaru personally it would likely be on S6 not F88 as it is a better fit and the ultimate control would be the same. Syvecs are well versed in the differences between the ECUs and can supply Syvecs-badged F88s as well as S6s if required, and frankly they have more experience setting up modified road cars (more standard sensor linearisations and base maps ready etc) than I do! I hope that's helped, and good luck with all your projects! Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz6002 Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Welcome interesting post there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny g Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Very interesting and very well written post there. Loved it. Welcome to the club - please bring more posts like that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davej705 Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Welcome mate,great read that post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxluc Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Welcome. Thanks for the great info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 I think this needs moving to the Supra section, as I know I for one rarely look in here, and saw this purely by chance. I am humming and hahhing as to whether to write up my opinions of the Syvecs ECU, from the point of view of someone who had cause to fiddle with the settings of one. For now all I would say is for God's sake write a manual like Motec have, I know it's hard work, boring and no doubt doesn't give you guys the same kick as all that wonderful code writing, but even if it wasn't fully up to date with every release it would be better than nothing. OK, some people want an ecu fitting and mapping and never want to see it, look at it or have any dealings with its operation. Others want to fit it, load a base map and get it ready for mapping themselves. Others, like myself, come in half way, and get a customer with an installation that needs modifying. The latter two users need a manual. DTA have excellent on line manuals, but a less than perfect real time support system. Motec show the way with paper manuals and brilliant on line help, with an active forum, up to date databases and sensor info, together with real time, and dedicated speak to techs "any time in office hours" support. I have no doubt the product is as good as those with far more technical knowledge than myself claim, but like any complex device, support is all, and a manual to me is vital. Even one of Europe's leading mappers found it a nightmare working out what to do with the software and expressed the need for this, let alone someone like me coming to it cold and wanting to add a pretty trivial function Maybe you want to keep the fitment and mapping pretty much closed shop, which is your prerogative and absolutely fine, but I am not sure that is really your business model? I have had two customers wanting a lot more info on Life ecu's and pricing, they too have expressed frustration in not finding this information easily and freely available from a central resource. It's good to see you posting, please don't take this as meaningless criticism, I hope it has come across as I intended? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 (edited) Good to hear they are much the same, i have an S6 (one of the first units, number 6 iirc) in my car mapped by Ryan and very happy with it, only reason id ever change from the S6 to the Syvecs F88 is if i was to go 12 injector setup. Edited October 13, 2010 by JamieP (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_jza80 Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Welcome aboard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamesy Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Interesting Are there any prices around for the F88 ecu at the moment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Interesting Are there any prices around for the F88 ecu at the moment? TBH, unless you need a 12 injector setup and 2000bhp i dont see why anyone would bother with the extra outlay, S6 is superb mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodge Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 very interesting read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamesy Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 TBH, unless you need a 12 injector setup and 2000bhp i dont see why anyone would bother with the extra outlay, S6 is superb mate. So its more expensive than the S6 mate? After reading the bold bit below i read that as it was cheaper than the S6 There is absolutely no intent that the S6 have inferior control, nor does it. Incidentally the same is true of all the reduced-cost F88 variants (F88R's hold lap records in Irish Superbike and Isle of Man TT victories). The difference between the ECUs is mainly the number and types of inputs and outputs and a few strategy differences related to that. Which ECU you choose to run is really a matter of which is most suitable for your project. For example if I was running a relatively standard (albeit high powered) Subaru personally it would likely be on S6 not F88 as it is a better fit and the ultimate control would be the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 My name is Mark Colby; I'm the system architect Hello Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 So its more expensive than the S6 mate? After reading the bold bit below i read that as it was cheaper than the S6 No mate, the F88 is about £2500+vat the S6 is £1300+vat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamesy Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 got ya, thanx mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 JP there is a S8 syvecs isn't there???? Ryan was saying this was the equivalent to the R88 but i think the S8 is plug and play, this all gets very confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny g Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 There products are all on http://www.syvecs.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 JP there is a S8 syvecs isn't there???? Ryan was saying this was the equivalent to the R88 but i think the S8 is plug and play, this all gets very confusing. Syvecs S8 is an F88 in a different case as far as i can see, im sure Ryan will spot this soon and confirm though, Ryan makes up the looms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Syvecs S8 is an F88 in a different case as far as i can see, im sure Ryan will spot this soon and confirm though, Ryan makes up the looms. Am i right in thinking the loom is a joiner from stock ecu plug to the syvecs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 JP there is a S8 syvecs isn't there???? Ryan was saying this was the equivalent to the R88 but i think the S8 is plug and play, this all gets very confusing. I beleive the difference is in the number of ingition controllers, i.e. for a v8 engined car the s8 is recommended otherwise the s6 has to run wasted spark. Might be talking cr&p, but recall reading something like that on the product descriptions when they were released. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Am i right in thinking the loom is a joiner from stock ecu plug to the syvecs. Thats how mine is but i got a very early one, i know there was talk of a plug and play unit, not sure if thats about yet. I beleive the difference is in the number of ingition controllers, i.e. for a v8 engined car the s8 is recommended otherwise the s6 has to run wasted spark. Might be talking cr&p, but recall reading something like that on the product descriptions when they were released. Dude is talking about the difference between the F88 and S8 mate, not S6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Handsome luke Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 Very good read, and perfectly true, as i stated in one of my earlier posts all the boards are the same. There are a couple of things that confused me about mark c 's post but ill call life in the morning before raising a question. Ps. dudes car is on the full f88 so we have sequential spark and 12 injector fueling.....As i stated before with cars as special as jamie p's and dudes etc out there WHY in gods name leave the std car loom to chance and introduce another problem point with a patch loom ..??? Ill speak with life in the moring and re post .. regards luke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 I dont see the point of changing something thats not broken tbh Luke, My loom has never caused a problem for me, many huge power supras in america been running like this for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 I dont see the point of changing something thats not broken tbh Luke, My loom has never caused a problem for me, many huge power supras in america been running like this for years. Some of my plugs have seen better days and as Luke said to me if a wire is degrading how can it keep a constant voltage, hot cold hot cold does eventually take its toll, new looms are definatly more flexible that a lot of older looms are now.Plus we want to run a prop sensor for diff applications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Handsome luke Posted October 13, 2010 Share Posted October 13, 2010 I dont see the point of changing something thats not broken tbh Luke, My loom has never caused a problem for me, many huge power supras in america been running like this for years. I take your point jamie but like said why risk this? I may be a bit of a geek (handsome one at that) when it comes to this sort of thing but voltage ,resistance,ohms,ecus is my thing. You may say yours is ok but what you cant see is ryans battery adder table to see what sort of voltage correction level he is using?? Your car is mental mate and in putting a patch loom in it you have just introduced another 34 odd ways for the car to go wrong ... Im not being a pompus prick but mearly trying to share my findings over my endless years fighting with cars for power lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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