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NA-T conversion, Loads of questions for the wise


Blackie

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To be honest i would class a single n.a as money lost also.

 

4k on to turbo it? It wont ever see that money again. Atleast with a smaller out lay you stand a chance.

 

In a ideal world a 2jz engine would be dumped in mine, however 2.5k is a shed load of money to spend.

 

I have to say, a turbo'd NA is a completely different car to a single turbo 2JZ-GTE.

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I have to say, a turbo'd NA is a completely different car to a single turbo 2JZ-GTE.

 

totally,

 

However we are in a n/a single thread.

 

Blackie wants power and has not got 20k to spend getting a 2jz with a big single.

 

So he has a few options.

 

1. 1jz. good for 320ish and cheaper than a 2jz by about a grand and a half. Down side it wont work with a supra auto box.

 

2. 2jz The best option for resale, however they are coming in at 2.5k and seem to be harder and harder to find.

 

3. Try a cheap single turbo on the n/a. Might fail but might give him the 300ish hes looking for without having to pay huge money. Resale should see him break even.

 

4. Spend 4k on a good single set up for his n/a. Resale slightly higher than the 1jz but IMO a total waste of money when a 2jz with BPU would be tons better for resale. Infact the there is only one car here worth doing that to and that is mich, due to the amount of engine bling he has.

 

Thats my two pence worth.

 

If Blackie gets around the 300bhp mark with the outlay he plans i will be following suit.

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if you plan to do all the work yourself it can cost as much or as little as you want. Although i have not set a budget my cost so far are pretty low ie

 

4 spare turbo;s from other cars T04E T04B T04Z CT20B +£0

Manifold £120 Braced by me

MLS H/Gasket Sip Racing £130

E-manage Blue got 2 C/w Harness £100 each

Walbro fuel pump £80

Exhaust 3" stainless 6m tube £60 making myself possibly duplex

Apexi AVCR boost controller already had spare

Blitz dump valve already had spare

Got a few more things to get, injectors intercooler forged pistons & rods etc but i dont expect it to cost more than 2.5k when complete. Oh and im doing this on a spare engine i got off ebay £23.00 only 52k on the clock not bad eh

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  • 1 month later...

hope its ok posting this in here, ive spent the best part of my 12hour shift, looking through this whole NA- T route and ive heard so many mixed reviews, prices and etc. i went along to clubNA-T and foudn this a real good read and interesting aswell http://forum.clubna-t.com/showthread.php?t=10

 

this is the bit i found most interesting.....

 

NA-T Basic's

Designing a Turbokit for the 2JZ-GE

 

There are a few things to keep in mind when deciding what you want to do. The biggest decision RIGHT NOW is whether you want to build a DIY kit or order a pre-built one from a reputable shop.

 

Going the DIY

is very rewarding and you will learn more about your engine than you thought possible. I personally went this route TWICE on my first two setups on my SC300. But I had the typical problems.

-The Price is a good bit cheaper. Face it, you can source your own parts off ebay, used items off of SupraForums and Clublexus classifieds, etc and probably build a kit for much cheaper IF you get everything. This isnt always the case

-The installation is a bit more difficult since you're putting together parts that werent necessarily designed for one another and may require some fabrication

-Used parts dont last as long and a lot of times they just arent as good of a quality as new stuff is (new stuff is ALWAYS coming out for the GE car nowadays).

 

Buying a Kit

is much simpler and easier to follow. You will still learn a lot about your motor if you install your kit yourself and still have the oppurtunity to purchase some used parts if you can find good deals, etc. Buying a kit you KNOW that it will work correctly if its a reputable shop such as BoostLogic, Sound Performance, PHR, Dave H, etc. People have already done them, posted their results and their problems so you can be ready for it when its your turn. You can purchase a turbo kit, fuel kit, aem kit, and be done with it and have a monster on your hands. They literally come with everything you need... being from the other side, I can tell you that this is an immense PLUS. It doesnt quite sound like it... but having done it twice, this is the way I will do it a 3rd time.

 

Parts in a Typical Basic NA-T kit (note this is not everything you need)

Turbo manifold (there are log and header types, headers flow for more power, but spool slower)

Wastegate (bigger you go, the more control you have and less chances for spikes and creep)

Downpipe (connects to your exhaust)

Intake pipe (connects from your turbo inlet to your filter or AFM)

Oil feed and drain lines (feed and drain oil to/from the turbo)

Turbocharger (large varieties of these, this is what makes boost!)

 

In the basic kit you usually run directly off the wastegate spring. Most kits keep you running on the stock compression levels (10:1 remember?) in the first "stage" or two, until you get serious about power anyways. This results in quicker spoolup and better off-boost response but you cannot run as much boost without risking serious damage to your motor.

 

-10:1 compression limits you to around 7-8psi without fiddling with your ignition timing (stock timing has a big "spike" of advance around 4000-4500rpms that will cause detonation if running more than 8-9psi and the base timing is not retarded 3-4 degrees)

-stock injectors will also limit you powerwise. I've seen several setups make OVER 400whp on the stock fuel setup (upgraded fuel pump) but its still best to upgrade them (and with a way to control them too -- SAFC, emanage, MAP ECU, AEM standalone, etc)... generally I wouldnt go over 350whp with the stock 330s.

-intercooler options, some kits come with some dont, most of the lower-priced ones dont and you are left to fend for yourself in the intercooler arena... you NEED one to run more than 5 or 6psi reliably

 

What you REALLY need for a well balanced kit

-strong turbo manifold, either a strong cast unit or a strong (IE 321 Stainless Steel) tubular header manifold... Dave H's manifold runs via Weld Els and it is VERY strong and beefy. His manifold is more of a hybrid, not really a log and not really a header.

 

-turbocharger to suit your powerband preferences (a later discussion perhaps?). Most people go with a T04E or PTE style turbo that makes around 400whp at 10psi of boost.

 

EDIT: Thanks for suprapunk pointing out something: If you are building your own kit: Ensure that your exhaust turbine lines up with your manifold Like make sure its a T4 hotside and a T4 flange on the manifold, and make sure you have the correct hotside outlet as well to mate to your downpipe (v-band, on-center, etc)

 

-35mm wastegate, Tial or HKS brands are good stuff. Many kits are running 38 and 40mm gates, which is fine, they cost more. Depending on how much power you'll be making with your turbo, you need to decide what to run unless a kit-maker already picks one.

 

-fuel and a method of controlling that fuel to supply enough for your power needs. On more basic setups I recommend the Emanage blue. Affordable and can tune your car very nicely. Most basic kits can make good power with MKIII Supra Turbo injectors. They are also top feed (but low impedance, need resistor box or inline resistors) and denso style but flow 440cc instead of 330. The Lexus V8 AFM modification is affordable and can make the 440s easily tunable with a simple fuel controller.

 

-a FRONT MOUNT INTERCOOLER. Do it once, do it right. The sidemount jobs cannot compare with the Front mounts other than being harder to see. You can pick up good quality units off ebay for under $300 these days.

 

-A 3 inch downpipe and 3" exhaust system! At least 3 inches all the way back if you can. Turbos need FLOW, give them a bigger exhaust and they will spool faster and give you MORE POWER.

 

-GOOD spark plugs and good conditioned ignition system (get a new rotor and cap for your distributor pronto!). NGK 3330s and NGK 6097s are both great plugs, they are pregapped at .031 which is perfect for turbo applications under 19-20psi of boost

 

-Oil feed/drain lines properly sized. Typical setup is -3 or -4 AN feed with a -10 (no smaller) drain line. Garret turbos require much less oil than most people think; and dumping high pressure (60psi+) oil into it and then having a small return line blows the oil seals on the turbo very quickly. You want NO flow resistance on the return line. You can do this by having a BIG return line like a -10 or use a oil-line restrictor (can pick them up at atpturbo.com). IF you buy a premade kit that comes with a oil-line kit then don't fret, its already been tested and setup with the turbo you'll be running from the kit.

 

Keep in MIND!!! That all of this is how to get power reliably out of the MOTOR. The transmission and the rear end are completely different subjects. Your stock clutch WILL NOT withstand more than 300whp and last for very long. Your stock transmission WILL NOT WITHSTAND more than 400-450whp for very long and driven hard (your mileage may vary).

Autos are very different from the stock 5-speeds. Do your research on driveline modifications!

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had to break this up into 2 posts,

 

.....Continued

 

Bigger Power!

 

Keep in MIND!!! That all of this is how to get power reliably out of the MOTOR. The transmission and the rear end are completely different subjects. Your stock clutch WILL NOT withstand more than 300whp and last for very long. Your stock transmission WILL NOT WITHSTAND more than 400-450whp for very long and driven hard (your mileage may vary).

Autos are very different from the stock 5-speeds. Do your research on driveline modifications!

 

In the bigger power arena, you need to bypass several obstacles. One most notably being the stock ECU with regards to fuel metering. There are only so many bandaids you can run before you run out of airflow (even with the V8 AFM). This means by going to speed density!

 

Speed density is a completely different way of measuring the air intake in the engine vs the mass-air system used in the stock GE.

 

The stock GE system uses Karman Vortex as its way of measuring air. If you've ever taken apart your intake and see the sensor itself, you'll see a waffle-style (or honeycomb) front on it. What this does it cause small vortexes to form after the air enters the system. The more air that enters, the more vortexes (and the larger they get). The quantity and amplitude of these vortexes is measured by a small speaker inside the housing. You can see it if you look carefully. Do not damage the honeycomb up front, you will cause the sensor to read bad.

 

Speed density uses two seperate sensors to measure how much air has entered the system.

-The first sensor is a pressure sensor that senses how much pressure or vacuum is in the intake system. This is called the "MAP sensor" MAP is short for "manifold absolute pressure". By absolute, this means TOTAL pressure including atmospheric pressure (which is 1 BAR at sea level) by the way. If someone has a 3 bar map sensor, it means it can read 29.4psi of pressure ABOVE atmospheric (14.7psi = 1 BAR). Obviously, this is a little sensor, and causes no intake restrictions of ANY sort.

-The second sensor is an air temperature sensor. When air cools, it becomes more dense, with more oxygen molecules. This sensor allows the ECU to compensate with more fuel to keep a safe mixture when the temperature rises or drops. It is called an IAT sensor - or "intake air temperature" sensor. This sensor also causes no restriction.

 

Almost all aftermarket ECU solutions are Speed Density (also called MAP-based) and this includes the AEM ECU. It can run via AFM, but its a waste not to utilize the extra flow and control with MAP. The "MAP ECU" is a piggyback solution for the stock ECU. Like the older VPC, it translates a MAP-based signal into an AFM signal that the ECU can use (and isnt any the wiser). Both the MAP ECU and AEM allow you to run MUCH larger injectors.

 

Ok I'm running a speed density system, I am cool!

Not so fast! You need BIG fuel injectors for that too. Luckily, the stock fuel rail is a top-feed unit, has an FPR plug on it that is right around 1/4" NPT in size, and has a good enough internal diameter to flow enough fuel for over 700whp. Boost Logic, SP, Titan, etc now offer NA-T fuel systems that either use the stock rail or replace the whole thing completely. These systems are generally customizable to the size injectors you want and most use TWIN Walbro Fuel pumps. Nice eh?

 

After that, you will already need to be running a GOOD turbo header... the cast jobs work well in the low-power arena, but with the big boys its all about FLOW.... and cast units DONT On the header setups, you will already be using a larger wastegate (40mm+) and at least a 3" downpipe. A lot of companies will have a 4" downpipe and midpipe combo to upgrade to if you're going to be making big power (dont really need that unless you're hitting over 700-750hp).

 

A FRONT MOUNT INTERCOOLER!!! I'd laugh if someone tried this with a stock sidemount

 

A turbo that can flow the amount of air you want. Do some research, because there is a HUGE turbo selection out there and new ones are coming out all the time that offer better and faster spool, more flow and power, and more extras ( like jet sounds from the ported shroud housings hehehe )

 

At this point you MUST be running a thicker headgasket. Why? Because you cannot make over 400-450whp reliably with the stock 10:1 compression. Stock SupraTTs come with 8.5:1 compression and can run lots of boost from the factory. YOU can get to this point by running a thicker headgasket. Your stock gasket is very thin... like .2mm vs the GTE gasket which is 1.6. Do not worry about squish-volume problems too much, since the primary source of compression drop on the 2jz-gte is achieved by running a much thicker headgasket. 2.5mm will get you to 8.5:1 compression.

 

The only problem left is ignition, which can be solved by running lower gap on your plugs and an HKS DLI. It boosts the ignition signal and will allow you to still make spark at higher boost when it would normally be "blown out" from the excessive pressure.

 

After this point, you can start tuning, running racegas and making BIG power. The stock GE intake manifold (EGR delete please!) can flow over 800-850hp and there's no point in upgrading to a high-flow unit (such as the DaveH unit) until you eclipse this point.

 

There are lots of little things this guide didnt have for big power, which is detailed tuning instructions (get it tuned by a professional if you dont know what you're doing!), and small tidbits you should already know. (ie Beaded intercooler pipes, new gaskets for all hardware, etc)

 

Please understand that this is just a basic blow by blow of how to obtain power from this motor. If you can understand this so far, then congradulations, you can probably handle the whole deal just fine.

Remember that you can always just purchase a kit from a reputable manufacturer and it will come with everything you need.

 

Give one of the good shops a call and tell them exactly what kind of power you want with what kind of powerband (nothing too unrealistic here k?) and they will give you an invoice or statement telling you exactly what you need. They've answered these questions many times.

Edited by drift_bear (see edit history)
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hope this helps anyone as much as it did for me! after reading up about it im going to still go for the TT. it just save so much hassel in the long run

 

Cheers for that Al, I have decided to go TT in the end, Because the way i'm doing it i can go BPU straight away for not a lot of money

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This will be old news to most of you but for those who are starting out with a GE and haven't driven a GTE, I was going to go NA-T myself and commented earlier in the thread (not always helpfully!) but one thing I would suggest if anyone is thinking of NA-T'ing or swapping to a TT engine is to make sure to actually drive a TT (or VVTI TT) before you decide to lower the compression ratio or swap over to a GTE.

 

The difference in throttle linearity (predictability) and response (punch) is chalk and cheese territory. More like chalk and Kraft Philadelphia!

 

The reason I say this is that I just picked up my 'new' stock spoilerless '97 VVTI TT last night after trading in the trusty Beast of Bomex and after driving home I'm already missing the immediacy and sheer grunt or poke of the NA, which is afterall, what throws you back in the seat. That's what gives me a buzz atleast, more than top end speed or smooth but oh so powerful acceleration, although it's on another planet compared to the NA at speed.

 

Linear G-force is also why 'real drivers' prefer manuals, of course, although holding the NA Auto in first or second gear is just as controllable with the same fantastic engine braking, just not as controllable on a track and with limited gears.

 

Once I've got used to the Tiptronic, (counter-intuitive buttons for me), I'll absolutely rave about it but right now, the TT VVTI is just too refined and smooth so NA owner's don't despair; you might not like them anyway until you forget how the NA drives and learn to appreciate the turbo/s.

 

In yet other words, be careful to assess what actually gives you the 'buzz' that you're looking for, as the compression ratio makes a huge difference to the way the engine develops power. Ideally, you'd NA-T and very carefully push the boost as far as possible without detonation but even increasing the compression ratio at the expense of boost if you don't need more than say 300hp, since high combustion pressure is what actually gives you more torque/hp in the first place; think diesels @16:1 CR.

 

There just happens to be a point at which, unfortunately, forced induction causes detonation because of the fuel octane level, hence race fuel, (slower burning) but you can do a lot to minimize knocking, if it should occur, like deburring and coating the pistons and chambers (head around the valves) with ceramics and choosing pistons with the right squish etc.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing how David2009 gets on with his NA-Supercharged! :eyebrows:

 

Drag cars don't typically use turbos precisely because of lag, which superchargers have much less of and they can develop as much boost. Remember also that manifold/plenum boost pressure is actually backpressure or the result of airflow resistance, so it will always pay to port and flow the whole system before increasing boost, concentrating on the valve bowls and valve angles, flowbenching etc.

 

They are very different though, the NA and TT, that's for sure. Maybe if my old NA was in the same condition as the VVTI, it would be even more of a marked difference.

 

Ideally, I'd have an NA manual with very high compression for the track days that I've never been on and the TT for longer journeys.

 

Only my thoughts at the moment and sorry for the long post. I just think people should focus more on getting the best out of the NA before boosting it, that's all, as you'll be starting from a better flowing engine, which when boosted, will see dramatically improved power over a non-ported/matched system but it has to be done right.

 

Most people do the reverse and increase boost and maybe, if they can afford it, have the head worked and matching done when they hit a brick wall (so to speak) but you can do it yourself as you rebuild the top end if you have time. You just have to know what you're doing. Won't be touching mine now. Runs like new and saves all the hassle of conversion. Maybe if the turbos eventually go I might rebuild it..........just don't underestimate the work involved and always replace the valve stem seals and give the valves a hone if you take the head off. Doesn't matter how much boost you give it, if the valves aren't gas tight, you're spinning your wheels!

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TT is probly better but you dont know what sort of life the engine/turbos have had regardless of what the owner tells. How long before the stock twins let go and the cracks appear in the housings... ;)

 

With good map and ecu you could do 10-11 PSI on the stock HG

 

Matt said mine is running around .8bar, which I work out to be around 12psi, I was running this setup on stock pistons and stock headgasket, unfortunately I dont know how reliable it was because I was also burning PAS fluid, at the time I thought the problem of dropping cylinders was down to compression and boost but it was due to burning PAS fluid..

 

Cheers, Pm'ed him :)

 

 

So how much did it all cost chap? Where did you get the kit from?

 

Here you go mate:

 

I will just list all the products out so you can see all the prices.

 

Boost Logic Stage 2 Turbo kit

$5200

 

AEM EMS, 3.5 Bar MAP Sensor(50% off), AEM IAT Sensor(FREE)-prices only valid with purchase of turbo kit

$1829 Box

$73.50 3.5 Bar MAP Sensor

$0 AEM IAT

 

Tial BOV

$239

 

RPS Max Series clutch with Street Disk(would recommend an install kit as well, $125.32 incl flywheel bolts)

$425

 

Unorthodox Lightweight Flywheel

$540

 

That is your basics to get things going and will yield roughly 280 rwhp on 7 psi. Do not be discouraged though as the 61mm turbo is nowhere near its efficiency range at that low of boost.

 

Just buy dropping in a set of TT pistons, Im now making 390bhp at that boost.

 

You won't do a reliable NA-T conversion for £2K, maybe 3-4 times that.

 

Turbo Kit

Intercooler

Fuel injectors

Fuel Pump

ECU + Mapping

Clutch/Gearbox (if manual) or Oil cooler/Gearbox (if Auto)

Gauges

Spark Plugs

Oil

Oil Filter

Oil Cooler

etc.

 

That's assuming everything else is in good working order (radiator, oil pump, exhaust, decats, etc.)

 

I would save more, sell the NA and buy a TT or do a 2JZ-GTE swap.

 

I paid, based on your list:

 

Turbo Kit - £550 off this forum (included turbo, manifold, oil lines, downpipe and wastegate)

Intercooler - £100 off ebay

Fuel injectors - £40 for a set of MKIII 440's

Fuel Pump Still running a stock NA pump

ECU + Mapping - £700 HKS FCon Pro + what ever you would spend on mapping.

Clutch/Gearbox (if manual) or Oil cooler/Gearbox (if Auto) - £400 for a R154, came with flywheel clutch, slave and all bolts, Im still running this clutch now.

Gauges - A cheapy boost and EGT is all you would need, currently Im not.

Spark Plugs - IK24's around £120

Oil - All egnines require oil, this isnt a cost factor to me.

Oil Filter - ??

Oil Cooler - May help, Im currently suffering slight over heating issues but Im putting that down to the rad, as I also had over heating issues on my TT6 when I was on Hybrids running 400+, I just dont think the stock rad is good after 400'ish

 

Things I would add.....

 

Bellhousing - £300

Prop/modification - £100

 

I just used a stock TT map sensor also....

 

My total for the build was.....and I had to buy a NA engine first £150

 

£2,360'ish

 

 

true true, there is fors and againsts for anything, at the end of the day its down to the person to do what they want.

 

a decent na-t setup would see figures past what a bpu tt can put out, its been profen loads of times by our folks over the water

 

390bhp @ 6,000rpm, and I still havent mapped the remaining 600rpm I think it is before the stock limiter, because the stock NA dizzy now cant keep up.

Edited by Suprash (see edit history)
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  • 4 months later...
Guest wantthatone

i have seen craigs project build, & it is credit to him, i think N/A-T is a good project, even when on a budget the results speak for them self. in fact im starting mine soon with a budget of £2,500 i will of course put a thread up along the way just to see if this is possible, there are kits out there like jamie says but again time will tell...

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so what do u all think about the kit from the suprastore its about 1500 on sale :) it has everything u need but is it to good to be true??? Help

 

Suprastore do not have a good reputation, do a search and you will find many threads on the subject.

 

If you're starting with a stock NA Supra here's some of the parts you will need (I may have forgotten one or 2 things). Don't underestimate the cost of doing a 'reliable' turbo conversion, it will cost you many £k's once you add it all up.

 

US$1500 is very cheap for a turbo kit, for that price I very much doubt it includes half of what you need and is fit for purpose in terms of quality. I personally would never do an NA-T conversion (I'd sell the NA and buy a TT) but if I was to, I would use a quality kit (not the cheapest available) that I'd be confident is fit for purpose eg. Boostlogic or Power House Racing.

 

Turbo

Manifold

Wastegate

Screamer pipe

Downpipe

Mid pipe

Exhaust

Oil lines/water lines/fittings

Intercooler pipes and fittings.

Intercooler and fittings.

Intake pipe, air filter and fittings

Blow off valve and fittings.

Fuel injectors

Fuel pump

Fuel filter

ECU, sensors, harnesses and mapping

Gauges - Boost, Oil Pressure, AFR, Fuel pressure, etc.

Boost controller.

Clutch, bearing, flywheel.

Various gaskets, seals, fittings and fabrication work.

Turbo blanket, heat wrap, distributor heat shield.

Radiator - with the added heat of a turbo kit the factory fitted radiator often can't cope and needs replacing.

Oil filter

Oil - budget for a couple of refills.

Spark plugs

Distributor cap, rotor arm and plug leads.

Edited by Nic (see edit history)
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Suprastore do not have a good reputation, do a search and you will find many threads on the subject.

 

If you're starting with a stock NA Supra here's some of the parts you will need (I may have forgotten one or 2 things). Don't underestimate the cost of doing a 'reliable' turbo conversion, it will cost you many £k's once you add it all up. US$1500 is very cheap for a turbo kit, for that price I very much doubt it includes half of what you need and is fit for purpose in terms of quality. I personally would never do an NA-T conversion (I'd sell the NA and buy a TT) but if I was to, I would use quality kit (not the cheapest available) that I'd be confident is fit for purpose eg. Boostlogic or Power House Racing.

 

Turbo

Manifold

Wastegate

Screamer pipe

Downpipe

Mid pipe

Exhaust

Oil lines/water lines/fittings

Intercooler pipes and fittings.

Intercooler and fittings.

Intake pipe, air filter and fittings

Blow off valve and fittings.

Fuel injectors

Fuel pump

Fuel filter

ECU, sensors, harnesses and mapping

Gauges - Boost, Oil Pressure, AFR, Fuel pressure, etc.

Boost controller.

Clutch, bearing, flywheel.

Various gaskets, seals, fittings and fabrication work.

Turbo blanket, heat wrap, distributor heat shield.

Radiator - with the added heat of a turbo kit the factory fitted radiator often can't cope and needs replacing.

Oil filter

Oil - budget for a couple of refills.

Spark plugs

Distributor cap, rotor arm and plug leads.

 

You forgot

 

Optimism

Eventual dissappointment

 

:p

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