Old topic new government solution, benefits ?

[Chris Wilson]

Where did the idea of child support originally come from? I have never grasped the concept of why having a child gives anyone the right to expect, let alone get financial aid. I want a Tapir, and can't afford one, but I would never expect anyone to fund it, yet I am expected to fund children of those that can't afford them. So in this overpopulated country I would want to stop all child support to those who have children when not in a financial position to support them. I would also like to see single motherhood by choice made very financially unpalatable to make long term marriage a more sound option.

 

Stop all immigration of those unable to prove ability to self finance for at least 5 years, or those without a proven bona fide job to go to.

 

Interment, and a radical law change, for those who really think the majority swallow this mass immigration of those patently lawless and work shy bunch claiming bogus asylum.

 

Make credit for luxury goods as hard to get as possible until people re gained a sense of financial culpability.

 

I could go on, but it's Sunday and I am feeling charitable

[Tony]

I currently employee 5 people,3 have children so assume they get child benefit etc.the other two are single.all british tax paying citizens! They get above the minimum wage

 

I did have 16 employees January 2009,then the recession hit and an influx of polish cheap labour employeed by a rival firm made as lose work. I nearly went out of business,had to take my life savings from under the floorboards ( can't trust these robbing banks ) just to stay afloat. Things are slowly picking up again now so all is looking ok,will be advertising some jobs soon and expanding again

 

Good more power to you, Keep it British:d:thumbs:

[formatzero]

The sad fact is no matter how much discussion there is on this subject not much ever changes.One of the main problems in this country is too many people,that means not enough jobs,more people on benifits,strain on social and medical services,shortage of housing,congested roads,etc etc.

Solutions on a postcard to MR D Cameron and that other joker very few people voted for

[Havard]

Where did the idea of child support originally come from? I have never grasped the concept of why having a child gives anyone the right to expect, let alone get financial aid. I want a Tapir, and can't afford one, but I would never expect anyone to fund it, yet I am expected to fund children of those that can't afford them. So in this overpopulated country I would want to stop all child support to those who have children when not in a financial position to support them. I would also like to see single motherhood by choice made very financially unpalatable to make long term marriage a more sound option.

 

Stop all immigration of those unable to prove ability to self finance for at least 5 years, or those without a proven bona fide job to go to.

 

Interment, and a radical law change, for those who really think the majority swallow this mass immigration of those patently lawless and work shy bunch claiming bogus asylum.

 

Make credit for luxury goods as hard to get as possible until people re gained a sense of financial culpability.

 

I could go on, but it's Sunday and I am feeling charitable

 

I agree with the above. We have two kids and we get around £50 a month for them in "child benefit". Personally, we do not need this money and I just stash it in an account and use it occasionally to fill the Supra up. This is what is wrong with the system..!!

 

I would much prefer to see a better means tested system but people will not show their cards as financial greed rules the roost.

 

I particularly agree with the statement about single parenting being more unnatractive but the consequence of this will be people staying together for "money" and bringing up kids in unhappy loveless relationships and therefore that generation will spawn it's own problems with lack of respect, anti social behaviour and probably crime/drungs etc.

 

People are like lemmings, we are constantly trying to stop them falling off the edge, maybe it would be better if we let them....

 

H.

[caseys]

I can understand incapacity benefit - those who are unable to physically work due to injury or illness - and that incapacity is signed off by the NHS. Fine with that. Maybe even do a mental desk type job. If you're so incapacitated you can't answer the phone then I'd think you're probably in a dire enough situation that I'd say yes,.... work is your last thought at the moment.

 

I can also understand those that want to give their child the best possible start in life - the 1st year being quite important regarding learning, breastfeeding etc, and also agree with many on here that it should be a responsible act when having a child - i.e. your other half can work/support the household whilst mothers raise children.

 

We DO have ration vouchers etc put in by Labour called 'Healthy Start' vouchers - which are linked to child tax credits. These vouchers are given for 6 week periods which can only be used to buy milk, vegetables and fresh fruit - an excellent idea I think. Promotes healthy living - it's only about £3.50/week of vouchers though I think. Can't be spent on anything else, but yes in a way it does free up £3.50 off your shopping which you can then spend on anything else.

 

Single parent families should be supported by both parents - a child is your responsiblity until at least 18 or when the eyes of society/law deem them responsible for their own actions. You made a child - your responsibility - fiscally paid for if you decide to bail on the mother (which I think is deplorable). The CSA didn't quite work, make it tougher, leaner and have more powers to go after support money to fund the child and the child only.

 

If a single mother is single out of choice past 12 months of child's age - we should have a system where children go into government run/managed childcare for the days so employment is possible, and a delta where childcare is at least part paid for by the parents - work and earn or at least work and help society benefit (by whatever the job is). Both parents should pay for this childcare if required and also then that will create government funded jobs. Maybe this is a socialist viewpoint? Feh.

 

If no valid incapacity reason or under 1 child is in the situation then no cash benefits I think is a sensible idea - vouchers for food/utility/housing/childrens needs and nothing else. You can live, the government will educate your child when the time comes, you can go get a job and have part subsidised government childcare.

 

If you're not a breastfeeding mother or incapable of work - you go work for the government/state at a wage that is capable of sustaining yourself, with opportunities to learn/advance in careers or train in the spare time. I'm sure there's lots of work which the government outsource which could be done by people in the welfare system (i.e. manual labour, data entry etc).

 

Sorry but those that say about immigration - regarding at least working immigrants I'm all for those that have a work ethic. I do though agree we should have means tested immigration and that you've got 12/24 months to prove you're working and not being a detriment to the country or you're deported. You want to be here? Then pay your way. If you're incapable of doing that - have your own country keep care of you. War/refugee situations are different.

 

If you're a man and have no valid reason not to work - again just either get basic meal rations or some sort of conscription into some work that'll benefit us all.

 

I agree with many - a lot of people appear to have no work ethic or pride to be able to build themselves up in life. Some people really do need to MTFU.

 

Just my two pence. Now back to my first day off in 62 days.

[caseys]

I agree with the above. We have two kids and we get around £50 a month for them in "child benefit". Personally, we do not need this money and I just stash it in an account and use it occasionally to fill the Supra up. This is what is wrong with the system..!!

 

Really H? Then erm.... either.. :

 

Why claim it if you don't need it and it's not actually benefiting the children?

Why not invest it in your children's savings for future use i.e further education / marriage / saving for a house?

 

Must say your comment there has quite surprised me from my portrayal of yourself...

[sdistc]

As an "immigrant" worker, I think I have inkling of the processes involved in immigration.

1) Visa costs are not cheap, generally. It is already subject to means-testing, plus a points-based application system, prior to entering the UK.

2) If you are entering from outside the EU, then you're going to find it extremely difficult to get on benefits of any description.

3) Why pay taxes equivalent to UK residents when you don't receive many of the benefits? This country is "user-pays" to a large extent (my transport costs, for example), and we pay insurance to cover most of the other services (income protection, public liability, home&contents, car, council tax, utility bills etc. etc.). Granted, the NHS is there regardless of my need for it - but the tax I pay surely can cover that.

 

Other than that, it is generally very very difficult to ensure the system is fair for everyone. I would argue that there should be some method of payment for every benefit - even if it's just community service hours. There are many many things that even disability pensioners can contribute.

 

Edit: Oh, and I think we should replace "marriage" with "committed relationship" - because essentially we're just wanting two parents to contribute financially and emotionally to the raising of a child, and this does not require marriage in this current day.

[Havard]

Really H? Then erm.... either.. :

 

Why claim it if you don't need it and it's not actually benefiting the children?

Why not invest it in your children's savings for future use i.e further education / marriage / saving for a house?

 

Must say your comment there has quite surprised me from my portrayal of yourself...

 

 

I thought that my comment would cause a bit of a stir....

 

Sorry to disappoint you....

 

We never actually applied for child benefit, we were written to and asked for our bank account details around seven years ago. As a family then we were both earning around the national average each. In that time our earnings has risen significantly and when our second son was born 3 years ago we were sent a letter saying that we were "entitled" to a further payment. We did need to do anything, it would be added to the original payments.

 

This money is paid into an old account that we used years ago and we do not regularly use it. We have a different account for our day to day dealings, wages etc. Our kids both have savings accounts and they are well catered for in all aspects of the present and the future.

 

The point I was trying to make is that under the current system, even a family that has a steady, above average income has the money thrust upon them and they will get it even if they don't actually need it. I imagine if we were a little less scrupulous we could benefit massively by manipulating the system. Maybe the child benefit was a bad example in hindsight.

 

In the first three years of each childs life the costs are massive, nappies, clothes, food, nursery is like another mortgage if you want to continue work. I took all these costs into account when I decided to have children. If we would have had some assistance then ( 3 years) only then I would have partially agreed with the system, but we are still getting the payments now at a time when most of our major costs are no longer a problem....

 

Do you think I should write to the govenment and tell them to stop paying us or do you think they should have an idea where the money is best spent Caseys?

 

H.

[imi]

Talking with my sister the other day,we worked out she,her husband and 2 sons would be better off signing on,getting the rent,council tax,dole money etc paid than they are now.they both currently work their tits off. She refuses to go on the dole but there are many families that won't struggle when they can have it easy.

 

I own and run a small courier business,have done since I was 21. I started this business by saving hard for 2years with zero help from anyone and now the government takes about half of everything I earn so bums can sit around having 10 kids and drinking Stella,it makes my blood boil

 

The government will never change this

 

there was a report on TV the other day where this chap did a similar analysis and deduced that he would be better off on benefits and decided to quit his job - 24 months later he was still on benefits.

 

my question is - how can benefits be offered to someone who is perfectly capable of working?

 

the impression I am left with is that it is far too easy to get onto the benefit system - infact the report said that there were courses that helped you get as much out of the system as "one is entitled to".....

 

easy pickings when mugs like me are happily paying for it...

[caseys]

I thought that my comment would cause a bit of a stir....

 

Sorry to disappoint you....

 

 

I mostly thought it was the former the reason you gave it.

 

Sorry, been a long couple of months. I know I've never met you but you seem like a nice chap and didn't think you would frivolously spend away child benefit

 

We never actually applied for child benefit, we were written to and asked for our bank account details around seven years ago. As a family then we were both earning around the national average each. In that time our earnings has risen significantly and when our second son was born 3 years ago we were sent a letter saying that we were "entitled" to a further payment. We did need to do anything, it would be added to the original payments.

 

The point I was trying to make is that under the current system, even a family that has a steady, above average income has the money thrust upon them and they will get it even if they don't actually need it. I imagine if we were a little less scrupulous we could benefit massively by manipulating the system. Maybe the child benefit was a bad example in hindsight.

 

In the first three years of each childs life the costs are massive, nappies, clothes, food, nursery is like another mortgage if you want to continue work. I took all these costs into account when I decided to have children. If we would have had some assistance then ( 3 years) only then I would have partially agreed with the system, but we are still getting the payments now at a time when most of our major costs are no longer a problem....

 

Do you think I should write to the govenment and tell them to stop paying us or do you think they should have an idea where the money is best spent Caseys?

 

H.

 

I agree having a 5 month old that the costs and consequences of having a child are huge as many on here know and thankfully take into account with the life changing decision of spawning.

 

I agree though the thresholds are a bit strange, you can definitely earn enough to be above the breadline and don't think you need support but still get it. And yes, as usual, you get it when you don't need it and don't when you do need it.

 

Well if you really don't think you need it chap and you're quite affluent I'd say either use it exactly for what it's for - their food/clothing/maintenance or savings, give it to charity (NSPCC or Midwifery etc) or indeed get in contact with HMRC and let them know it's surplus to your requirements.

 

http://taxcredits.hmrc.gov.uk/HomeNew.aspx - may help.

 

Glad to see my judgement of character was indeed correct in thinking whilst humourous you're an upstanding citizen

[imi]

Still dont see a problem with it. Why should I work my arse off while somebody else sits around taking my money for doing nothing.

 

Are you saying that those who have made an effort to better themselves should feel privileged to fund those who have never made an effort and expect everything given to them on a plate?

 

Think about what you are saying as it makes no sense to me at all. I believe your approach is what is wrong with society and needs to be drastically overhauled.

 

well said - some people are under the deluded illusion that they have a God given right to benefits.....

 

the cancer of our society......

[imi]

On the other hand i saw the devil (thatcher destroy our cole mining industry in favour of imported coal.)

 

Is there a point to local produce if it is not cost effective? I guess that is what she recognised and tried to re-align our nation to a services industry....

[a98pmalcolm]

Benifits get offered to people!!! Can you belive that! i have had a few customers that tell me that they get told they will earn about £10 less a month if they go on benifits... so.... y the hell not!

 

I totaly disagree with the whole benifit rubbish... If people want to get benifits (because they cant find a job) they should have a work placements in retail and warehouses etc... SO they have to sign on with the company for free and the payslip somes from the govenment (which is the benifits) not the company tacking on the the benfit robber...

 

If they dont get signed on with the company they dont get the benifits!! That will make the lazy bastards look for a job as they will be underpaid for what they are doin at the work placement!! Its that simple...

[Havard]

Glad to see my judgement of character was indeed correct in thinking whilst humourous you're an upstanding citizen

 

This is true....

 

I doubt we could ever be that organised that we used the exact same money that comes in and spend it in exactly the way it was intended.

 

We just put it in a big pot and then do the right thing by the kids etc. True though, there will be someone somewhere that £50- 60 a month will make a big difference to and they will spend it on wisely clothing and feeding their kids.

 

The harsh realisty is that the government will probably never find all these people and therefore the system becomes a spread betting excercise. The problem is at the moment, they aren't even close to spread betting in the right places.....

 

Most of the money that is meant for "childrens benefit" probably ends up being spent on beer and fags.....

 

H.

[jagman]

"Cut-price Polish workers have been drafted in to help build Britain’s two new multi-billion-pound aircraft carriers, it emerged last night.

 

Experts said it was the first time a Royal Navy shipbuilding programme has required the mass recruitment of overseas workers.

 

Some of the Polish welders are paid little more than £8 an hour for the job. This may be above the minimum wage of £5.80, but it is barely half the £15 an hour paid to British tradesmen doing similar work as employees of the main contractor, BAE Systems.

 

Employers sub-contracted to the job by BAE turned to dozens of Poles because they couldn’t find UK workers with the required skills."

 

Perhaps the locals could sell their vouchers to the Polish workforce on the cheap for cash ?

So the once great British shipbuilding industry now cant find any one that can weld? Bet every local kid can use a computer though

[TTRickeh]

 

Perhaps the locals could sell their vouchers to the Polish workforce on the cheap for cash ?

So the once great British shipbuilding industry now cant find any one that can weld? Bet every local kid can use a computer though

 

So, what? Teach kids to weld instead of using computers?

[Miguel]

I currently employee 5 people,3 have children so assume they get child benefit etc.the other two are single.all british tax paying citizens! They get above the minimum wage

 

I did have 16 employees January 2009,then the recession hit and an influx of polish cheap labour employeed by a rival firm made as lose work. I nearly went out of business,had to take my life savings from under the floorboards ( can't trust these robbing banks ) just to stay afloat. Things are slowly picking up again now so all is looking ok,will be advertising some jobs soon and expanding again

 

Candy Carriers?

[caseys]

So the once great British shipbuilding industry now cant find any one that can weld? Bet every local kid can use a computer though

 

Well yes but I bet welders also use computers.

 

Same as if I grew up 50 years ago I'd probably have been taught a heck of a lot more carpentry or such than I would have IT.

 

Countries evolve, technology evolves and so the workplace/workforce evolves. The more advanced a society the less manual skills it tends to have - especially the UK being a service economy far more now than it is a manufacturing one.

[davej705]

Candy Carriers?

 

Candy carriers? What's that then

 

Was your supra silver fella,read on another thread that you were disabled and I remember a silver supra on the island with a disabled driver, remember seeing it when I was too young to own one thinking " i will have one of those one day"

[Miguel]

Candy carriers? What's that then

 

Was your supra silver fella,read on another thread that you were disabled and I remember a silver supra on the island with a disabled driver, remember seeing it when I was too young to own one thinking " i will have one of those one day"

 

One of my Supra's was silver, yes. Handy to know you run a courier

[TTRickeh]

I agree with the above. We have two kids and we get around £50 a month for them in "child benefit". Personally, we do not need this money and I just stash it in an account and use it occasionally to fill the Supra up. This is what is wrong with the system..!!

 

H.

 

Well looks like it's changing...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11464300

 

No child benefit for people in the 40-50% tax brackets. One stupid part of the new system is that if there are two parents on 43.9k (44k is the 40% bracket) they will still receive child benefit, but if there is one parent on 45k then they will not recieve any.

 

So effectively a household income of 83k = child benefit Vs single parent household income of 45k = no child benefit.

[tbourner]

So effectively a household income of 83k = child benefit Vs single parent household income of 45k = no child benefit.

 

As mentioned before the simplicity of the blanket rules is the problem, they need the manpower and time to assess each case, or to set up more complex rules for them.

I agree with both sides saying unemployment benefit should and should not be taken away, but I think the midpoint is that it should be given for a set period of time, then reduced, then removed. Jobs should be offered during this period (if there are no jobs, supply community support work along with the same benefit money), and any refusal of a job results in removal of the benefit.

 

I also don't agree with child support at all, as said it should be very difficult financially to have a child, even to the point of taxing those who have more children to prove they can support them. Unfortunately this would mean children would be put in dangerous situations unless they had forced abortions and other unethical practices.

[stevie_b]

...One stupid part of the new system is that if there are two parents on 43.9k (44k is the 40% bracket) they will still receive child benefit, but if there is one parent on 45k then they will not recieve any.

 

So effectively a household income of 83k = child benefit Vs single parent household income of 45k = no child benefit.

 

This in an anomoly, but the alternative is to implement complex, means-tested rules whereby each family's income, outgoings, number of dependents, etc etc need to be assessed for each application. Employ a good accountant and you could probably get around these complex rules.

 

At least simple rules are simple to implement.

[Dozymare]

it should be very difficult financially to have a child

 

Of course the problem with this is that only rich people can then have children. Whilst I don't see the attraction of breeding many people seem to place a lot of importance on it and I can't see it's right to go out of your way to make it hard.

 

There was a brief golden age when both parents working actually meant you had more cash to spend, before two wages became the norm and the cost of living rose accordingly. Now both parents have to work (it's not a choice), the cost of childcare has gone through the roof since they brought in all the qulification requirements, and you end up in the position where you would be better off on benefits - the cost of childcare plus commuting eats up a couple hundred quid a week before you start.

[TTRickeh]

This in an anomoly, but the alternative is to implement complex, means-tested rules whereby each family's income, outgoings, number of dependents, etc etc need to be assessed for each application. Employ a good accountant and you could probably get around these complex rules.

 

At least simple rules are simple to implement.

 

I agree simple is cheap but obviously cheap and fair don't seem to go hand in hand.