Front Crank Main Seal?

[CanisLupus]

Now I'm more confused than before the thread

Modified or not?

I'll post up the pictures later didn't have the time yet.

[Chris Wilson]

If the crank has a noticeable wear groove I can now supply a special seal to help accommodate this. It is NOT a guaranteed fix, if the crank is badly worn, and / or has excessive end float it may still leak. I always advise a new stock oil pump, and a CLOSE examination of any wear ridge where the front oil seal bears on the nose of the crank.

[dude]

So what was the problem Jamie? was it down to crankshaft interface being worn or damaged? or where you one of the very rear cases of badly seating rings etc causing enough pressure to add to the existing oil pressure behind the seal?

 

 

 

 

IMO opening out the drain hole by about 1.5mm is a good idea, as the hole was put the for a good reason, the oil pump no matter what condition WILL leak a certain amount of oil past the mating surfaces during normal operation,( i will add that this will depend on manufacturing tolerance's which in most cases is not to great standards as most aftermarket spares are pattern from a third party manufacture)

it cannot completely fail to leak! so if the drain hole was not there, the would be a thriving business in replacing FMS LOL!

 

Now Supras and in particular TTs and single turbos, due to safe mapping run on the rich side, so the oil suffers a certain amount of dilution/contamination which is not good for the engine bearings anyway, and in particular the oil pump seems to suffer the most, and hence as it suffers from premature wear, and leaks more and more oil, which is why a lot of FMS are overwhelmed by the excess pressure behind it, as the drain is not able to disperse the pressure quick enough at higher RPM (where most seals fail) so its not a bullshit mod! its done for a very good reason

 

Like I said the reason for it being done is another problem ie running rich/thin oil, like I said Titan do not mod the pump, even on a full monty build that will run 3 bar or more.

[Tricky-Ricky]

Like I said the reason for it being done is another problem ie running rich/thin oil, like I said Titan do not mod the pump, even on a full monty build that will run 3 bar or more.

 

Its not what i consider a necessary mod, mealy a good idea if your intending doing reasonable millages without stripping the motor,

Titan and similar high spec motors are not intended to run large mileages between stipdown for inspection, so any problems with an oil pump would be picked up early, even non drag/competition motors tend to get stripped at lower mileages in the US.

 

I'm afraid i stand firm on the fact that there is always a certain amount of leakage from the pump front face, hence the drain in the design, and it doesn't take a great deal of wear for the amount of oil escaping to pressurise to overcome the seal,

Yet the pump output pressure can be rock solid,

So we will just have to disagree on this one:)

[CanisLupus]

If the crank has a noticeable wear groove I can now supply a special seal to help accommodate this. It is NOT a guaranteed fix, if the crank is badly worn, and / or has excessive end float it may still leak. I always advise a new stock oil pump, and a CLOSE examination of any wear ridge where the front oil seal bears on the nose of the crank.

 

Thanks Chris I'll take a close look. Do you have them in stock? How much are they?

 

I think I'll go with the OEM and then decide if I'll mod it or not.

 

@Scott i would like to. But it's a really bad timing($$ ^^) for all of that and i want her to run by end of September cause I'm going to the Nurburgring in the beginning of October

 

Any tips on how i know the Seal isn't to far in?

[dude]

Its not what i consider a necessary mod, mealy a good idea if your intending doing reasonable millages without stripping the motor,

Titan and similar high spec motors are not intended to run large mileages between stipdown for inspection, so any problems with an oil pump would be picked up early, even non drag/competition motors tend to get stripped at lower mileages in the US.

 

I'm afraid i stand firm on the fact that there is always a certain amount of leakage from the pump front face, hence the drain in the design, and it doesn't take a great deal of wear for the amount of oil escaping to pressurise to overcome the seal,

Yet the pump output pressure can be rock solid,

So we will just have to disagree on this one:)

 

How about the mod where you screw the seal in,or more to the point use screws to hold it in??? But agreed on the higher mileage theory.

[Tricky-Ricky]

How about the mod where you screw the seal in,or more to the point use screws to hold it in??? But agreed on the higher mileage theory.

 

I have always been of the opinion that the screw retainer idea for the seal is just a band aid for an ill fitting, or badly fitted seal,

 

All the seal failures i have seen, are down to the seal lips displacing enough to dislodge the inner spring , as the spring has always been lose on the other side of the seal when removed, and the seal itself is still firmly in position.

[CanisLupus]

There it is. Current state of the "operation"

As i said the cam gears and cam belt were a little oily also everything around the oil sump.

Didn't have the time to try the damn Pulley bolt again, i think I'll try tomorrow again when i have some free time.

 

Anything weird someone can see on the pictures?

Can somebody confirm it's the FMS?

 

[Tricky-Ricky]

Yes! looks 100% FMS to me.

[dude]

You could always whack a pair of cam oil seals in to be on the safe side.

[CanisLupus]

You could always whack a pair of cam oil seals in to be on the safe side.

 

Thought about that. But would there be so much oil loss(about 0,5litres in 60km) when it's the cam seals? On the other side thinking about changing the Cam Gears to adjustable ones later anyway and maybe other cams so i would change the seals then.

 

Thanks Ricky!

So the plan is to get that bolt of and have a look at the crank and oil pump and then order pump + seal.

 

Will post more pics once the Crank Pulley is off. Thanks guys!

 

p.s. Any further input on changing the pump and so on is very welcome!

[Tricky-Ricky]

Thought about that. But would there be so much oil loss(about 0,5litres in 60km) when it's the cam seals? On the other side thinking about changing the Cam Gears to adjustable ones later anyway and maybe other cams so i would change the seals then.

 

Thanks Ricky!

So the plan is to get that bolt of and have a look at the crank and oil pump and then order pump + seal.

 

Will post more pics once the Crank Pulley is off. Thanks guys!

 

p.s. Any further input on changing the pump and so on is very welcome!

 

 

 

Looking at your first pic, if it was a cam seal i would expect to see more oil on the inside of the pulleys due to centrifugal force as the oil hits the pulleys, and also running down the back plate,

 

You pic show oil being flung to the outside of the casing, so its clearly coming up and off the belt.

[dude]

Looking at your first pic, if it was a cam seal i would expect to see more oil on the inside of the pulleys due to centrifugal force as the oil hits the pulleys, and also running down the back plate,

 

You pic show oil being flung to the outside of the casing, so its clearly coming up and off the belt.

 

Cam seals are prob OK but its only a quick job now to change them.

[CanisLupus]

Just a little update... After wrecking some tools with trying to undo the damn F... bolt i ordered an Electric Impact Wrench with a max torque of 450nm... let's see how long it will last when it arrives

[Chris Wilson]

The bolt or the gun?

[CanisLupus]

I hope the bolt goes first.

 

Chris how much is that special Front Main Seal you sell? Thinking about fitting it even if the wear isn't to drastic or would you not recommend it if it's ok?

Edited September 14, 2010 by CanisLupus (see edit history)

[Chris Wilson]

Fit a stock one if there is no wear lip. My special ones are £15 each plus VAT.

 

If you have bought a German gun it should work, if you have bought a British one.....

[CanisLupus]

Thanks mate!

Will have a close look when i dismantle everything and give you a shout if needed

 

The wrench arrived today! What a huge piece of tool xD

Will try later if the screw has something to put against it(don't think so honestly )

[CanisLupus]

So a little update, after waiting for a Pulley removal tool i removed everything. Crank looks fine IMHO but the Seal looks F...d.

I took some pics which i will upload later when I'm out of the bathroom

 

Also ordered a new seal today at my Local Toyota Dealer cost me 19,28 Euro.

My plan now is to get everything clean replace the seal and have a close look if it leaks again. If it does I'll replace the pump too and with it the cam seals to be 110% sure.

[CanisLupus]

Pics as promised. Seal is bent in a strange way.

Pump looks fine and crank has no real signs of wear as far as i can see.

Just to confirm. The small dot over the crank pulley and the Square on the "star" looking thing behind it should be the way to align the crank? Also the two red marks on the Camshaft pulley and on the metal over them? Or am i wrong?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Any comments on the pics very Welcome.

 

@Chris don't know where the Wrench is from but it's Mahooosive and freaking strong, the bolt gave up after 10seconds ^^

Edited September 22, 2010 by CanisLupus (see edit history)

[Tricky-Ricky]

Some observations after looking at your pics, first it looks to me like the seal was fitted badly IE not even to the casing, there are some scraping marks, probably from the CPS star,

 

Secondly the seal should not need any sealant to fit, and obviously someone has used it, the seal lip also looks damaged, and i would say from bad fitting again, and lastly if the seal was leaking from over pressure due to a work pump i would expect to see the spring that holds the lips solid displaced, so you may just get away with fitting the new seal.

 

When fitting a new seal, clean all the surfaces well to remove all traces of oil, spirit wipe of similar, don't use silicone or any sealer, as it shouldn't be necessary, and only drive the seal so its level with the case, no further! also try and use something that will drive the seal in level, not just tap either side with a rubber mallet.

[CanisLupus]

OK had the same thought with the sealant.

Can't i just push it in with the fingers? It went out pretty easy.

So no oil or anything else should be used to get it in place and everything should squeaky clean? ^^

 

What about the marks to arrange the Crank and Camshafts?

[Tricky-Ricky]

OK had the same thought with the sealant.

Can't i just push it in with the fingers? It went out pretty easy.

So no oil or anything else should be used to get it in place and everything should squeaky clean? ^^

 

What about the marks to arrange the Crank and Camshafts?

 

If you can push it in with your fingers, then there is a problem with the casing, it should be an interference fit and will need to be at the least taped in with a small rubber mallet.

 

How did you remove it? it may have come out easily because it was distorted when it was fitted, hence the silicone.

[CanisLupus]

I used a flat head Screwdriver and pulled it out slowly side by side.

I think it went out so easy because it was oily everywhere and f...d. Today or tomorrow the new seal should arrive then we'll see how it fits when there is no lubricant

[CanisLupus]

It is done... yesterday 1800 i started the car again everything looks fine no oil loss so far and I've done about 100miles since yesterday ^^

 

The seal went in with some help of a rubber mallet and is tight and level with the casing of the oil pump so i hope that it will be OK.

 

Thanks for all your help guys!!