Holy Wars

[Scooter]

 

Ultimately, and I challenge any atheist to deny this; if there is no god, whether you are serial killer/rapist or a charity worker/ the most caring of individuals, you end up the same way. Dead. No memories, no accountability, nothing.

 

Perhaps this is the case? it may seem unfair but as someone that currently believes this is likely it doesn't make me want to veer off into all sorts of morally questionable activities or pastimes. I just follow a set of personal guidelines that I suppose I have set myself via influences from religion via my education, my parents and peer groups actions and the general media/advertised social behaviour that's acceptable? and these keep me on the relatively straight and narrow.........

 

........why does God wait until the afterlife to equal things up? When a three year old who is almost certainly truely 'without sin' can get and die from leukemia and a mass murder live into his 70's and die peacefully and painlessly in his sleep you do question whether this judgement day stuff actually happens.......

[Hemanhead]

 

Hemanhead, war declared in the name of atheism? What about war for land, oil, power?

 

Yes that is what war is really about. But religion is always there somewhere. Now its the war on terrorism, we must stop these religious extremists etc etc. We all know why this country is really there.

 

What guarantee is there that there won't be any conflict if religion didn't exist?

 

I didn't say there wouldn't be, but the world has tried religion for a few thousand years. Try an atheism U-turn.

 

What we consider morally abhorrant today can be acceptable tomorrow. This is why some religions (especially Islam) are perceived to be backwards, unable to 'keep with the times'.

 

But fundamentally if it is as you say it is then God will eventually judge you and I. So if homosexuality is wrong then he/she/it will judge. My problem is that religion doesn't stop with the judgment of god, it encroaches into mans own laws, but god did not write the laws of man.

 

What is good and what is evil? Dawking kept making reference to our sense of morality deriving from our genetic code. That's it. Just genetics. Emotions such as love, hatred, compassion are a result of mere physical reactions in the brain.I argue that because of our perception and strong inclination towards morality, this alone should spark ones contemplation of an omnipotent being but this is my personal belief.

 

Not quite, but you are referring to the part of the argument where he talks about gene's and 'memes',there is alot more. So the only reason you are good is to gain Gods approval and reward, or to avoid disapproval and punishment? Forget Matt H ill give you an Einstein quote

 

"If people are only good because the fear punishment and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed"

 

One of the inherit dangers of atheism is that it allows, governments and society can to assess everyone in bulk; cogs in a greater machinery. Dawking talks about the 'beauty' of the world but then in a world without God, beauty is just a word, a mere perception of an individual or of a mass of people.

 

Not really to sure about this segment,yes you could group atheist individuals into corresponding boxes but i could do the same with religious people. Dawkins talks about the beauty of an evolving world, something that happens as we type but then beauty is most certainly in the eyes of the beholder, i cannot entertain the idea that beauty cannot exist without god. God didn't create the Supra, man did!

 

 

Ultimately, and I challenge any atheist to deny this; if there is no god, whether you are serial killer/rapist or a charity worker/ the most caring of individuals, you end up the same way. Dead.

 

And i have heard many a religious person say that. But i only have to ask my 18 year old friend who has had cancer for 3 years why he has suffered so greatly and all rapist and child molesters don't suffer his affliction? But let's say that god was absent/non-existent, would you commit robbery,murder and rape? If yes then you would reveal yourself to be an immoral person and the forum might be well advised to steer a wide birth around you. If no, then where did your sense of moral righteousness come from exactly?

 

 

No memories, no accountability, nothing. I've heard atheist scientists claim that the purpose of life is essentially to reproduce. If that is what you believe then so be it but attributing a mere logistical valu....

 

For this last part my personal opinion falls on this. Life is as wonderful and meaningful as you choose to make it and what makes it so sweet is that it will never happen again.

 

Let us say that there is a god. What exactly makes you so decorous that you can assume that a higher entity such as a god should entertain and grant immortality to you? We are bottom dwellers looking to understand why we are here, and if we were all religious we would look no further than the sacred texts that billions adorn. Perhaps one day science will find the answers we seek during ones lifetime but religion will only answer them after i am dead.

[Tannhauser]

He doesn't actually just focus on the extreme and admits himself that you cannot 100% disprove the existence of a god, but by weighing up the for and against you would most likely conclude there is no god. (I am not a Dawkins groupie by the way )

 

The world is better with science interpreting it but to me just believing in Jesus origin,teachings,existence of god is fairly liberal attitude towards the bible. It looks to me like this hypothetical person would readily absorb scientific fact, but i suspect it would always be in the shadow ofPascal's wager.

 

I think that - with respect - maybe the spectrum of religious people you've encountered is narrow. Most believers I met - though not all - would take the 'liberal' view of the Bible. They are paid-up Big Bang enthusiasts. And I'm not sure Pascal's wager has anything to do with it: it's not a calculated thing. Their personal experiences, or interpretation of empirical observations, suggest to them God exists.

 

 

 

 

Well the Korean war has more to do with the interests of the USSR and the USA, one occupying the north the other the south.

WWII didn't start as a religious war but Mr. Hitler did use it to rally his cause even though privately he seems to have been atheist. But i do agree there is definitely room for secular beliefs to start conflict.

 

Yes, but the territorial interests were indivisible from the ideological ones, seeing that US thinking was dominated by the 'domino theory' paranoia about Communism.

 

Have you read 'The God Delusion'? I don't think its particularly biased but it is very good at rationalizing religion.

 

And just as a matter of curiosity, what side of the fence are you on, or are you just standing up for quieter voice?

 

I've read The God Delusion.It reads like a biologist who has strayed into an area he isn't familiar with. I've also readThe Dawkins Delusion by Alistair McGrath, which is well worth a look.

 

I'm an atheist, with a background in science. As a teenager, I looked forward to the day when organised religion crawled off to die quietly, in the face of science's magnificent advance. I don't think like that any more. For all the stuff I hear about religious hypocrisy, I would say that on balance, the believers I have encountered make a much more positive contribution to the world around them than the average atheist.

[Septic]

........why does God wait until the afterlife to equal things up? When a three year old who is almost certainly truely 'without sin' can get and die from leukemia and a mass murder live into his 70's and die peacefully and painlessly in his sleep you do question whether this judgement day stuff actually happens.......

 

We Muslims believe this life is a test for the hereafter. A three year old with leukemia could be a test for someone else.

 

“He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed, and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving”. (Al-Qur’an 67:2)

 

A mass murderer, well you can hazard a guess as to how well he/she will fare in this test. But lets turn your point around. What is the significance of the child suffering from leukemia and dieing at such a young age in the Atheist world? You have to face the harsh truth that if you are an atheist that all you can describe it as 'tough luck'. A mass murderer enjoys himself then dies peacefully. Is that fair? But an observant atheist might draw attention to the fact that there is no difference between the two scenarios. The end result is the same.

 

I didn't say there wouldn't be, but the world has tried religion for a few thousand years. Try an atheism U-turn.

 

What do you suggest? All people of faith renounce it to try out atheism? I fear that in the future there is going to be a growing trend where the atheist population will directly and indirectly force believers through compulsion in whatever form.

 

Not quite, but you are referring to the part of the argument where he talks about gene's and 'memes',there is alot more. So the only reason you are good is to gain Gods approval and reward, or to avoid disapproval and punishment? Forget Matt H ill give you an Einstein quote

 

"If people are only good because the fear punishment and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed"

 

That isn't true. Whilst punishment is a deterrent for many believers, the fact that God has stated what is good and what is evil PLUS our own morality and conscience compel us to do good and abstain from evil. Its not true that if believers have a crisis of faith, they will go on a rampage.

 

If I weren't a Muslim what would be the difference in the way I conduct myself? Well, I would exercise far less retraint in that I KNOW i would drink and smoke weed, have fun in strip clubs, sleep with lots of women etc. Basically do what almost atheists tend to do; Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (US Declaration of independence). In other words, I'll become a mere consumer.

 

And i have heard many a religious person say that. But i only have to ask my 18 year old friend who has had cancer for 3 years why he has suffered so greatly and all rapist and child molesters don't suffer his affliction

 

Exactly, what is his answer? There is no God? Fine but then be content with the 'fact' that his life is like that and whilst its not fair, it doesn't matter in the end when he expires (no offence intended).

 

What is the value of good and evil when you are dead?? In an atheist's world good and evil are just opposite ends of a spectrum.

 

Imagine a meteorite smashed into the planet killing all life and destroying the Earth; what happens to all that beauty, love, compassion, struggle, intellectual pursuit and the advancements made by mankind?

 

Let us say that there is a god. What exactly makes you so decorous that you can assume that a higher entity such as a god should entertain and grant immortality to you? We are bottom dwellers looking to understand why we are here, and if we were all religious we would look no further than the sacred texts that billions adorn. Perhaps one day science will find the answers we seek during ones lifetime but religion will only answer them after i am dead.

 

I really like the way you worded that paragraph. However, its incorrect that believers should look no further than the religious scripture they adorn:

 

"Say [unto them, O Muhammad]: Are those who know equal to those who know not? But only men of understanding will pay heed" (39: 9)

"In time, we shall show them our signs [ayatina] in the utmost horizons [of the universe] and within their inner selves until it will be manifest unto them that it is the Truth. Doth not thy Lord suffice, since He is Witness over all things." (41:53)

 

"Say [unto them, O Muhammad]: Are those who know equal to those who know not? But only men of understanding will pay heed" (39: 9)

 

"And whoso brings the truth and believes therein such are the dutiful." (Quran, 39:33)

 

 

"And He has subjected to you, as from Him, all that is in the heavens and on earth: behold, in that are signs indeed for those who reflect." (45: 13)

 

There are more passages in the Qur'an that mention at the end about signs for those who reflect or are of understanding. I just did a quick search and could find these.

 

Sayings of the prophet (Hadith):

 

 

"The acquisition of knowledge is compulsory for every Muslim, whether male or female."

 

"The ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr."

 

"Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave."

 

"God has revealed to me, 'Whoever walks in the pursuit of knowledge I facilitate for him the way to heaven.'

 

"The best form of worship is the pursuit of knowledge."

 

"Scholars should endeavor to spread knowledge and provide education to people who have been deprived of it. For, where knowledge is hidden it disappears."

 

I can't add footnotes on this but the above information is easily acquired via a search online.

[Thorin]

OK so I've skipped a few pages but...

 

Diophantus is the "father of algebra".

 

...and OK, Biruni came up with a more accurate figure for the radius of the Earth, but you were clearly trying to claim he was the first person to come up with this ("whilst the rest of the planet was content with the notion of a flat Earth").

 

There are much more accurate figures now, why not laud the scientists that came up with those figures instead?

 

Eratosthenes was the first person to estimate the circumference of the earth, and nearly a millennium before Biruni. Not that I'm taking anything away from your Islamic scientists, who are no doubt more intelligent that I, but your information (and that on the website posted) does seem rather biased. They deserve credit where credit is due... but the Greeks, Egyptians, and Babylonians came up with these ideas and theories long before the more modern day Islamic nations.

[Hemanhead]

I think that - with respect - maybe the spectrum of religious people you've encountered is narrow. Most believers I met - though not all - would take the 'liberal' view of the Bible.

 

The spectrum of beliefs is narrow (almost all Christianity) but not the people, i would go as far to say i have probably come into contact with religion in situations more varied than yours because of my line work.

 

They are paid-up Big Bang enthusiasts. And I'm not sure Pascal's wager has anything to do with it: it's not a calculated thing. Their personal experiences, or interpretation of empirical observations, suggest to them God exists.

 

That if they believe in science and its concepts then to me it just looks as though they have taken this stance on Pascal's wager. If I am wrong about his existence it won't matter as I am dead, however if he does exist then i was correct in not disowning him. (So I have covered my back just incase the worst should happen). All depends on what kind of god you believe in i suppose, i can't imagine it washing well with Yahweh or any creationist belief though. This is the sort of inter religious conflicts i was speaking of.

 

I've also readThe Dawkins Delusion by Alistair McGrath, which is well worth a look.

 

I will try and have a look at that.

 

I'm an atheist, with a background in science. As a teenager, I looked forward to the day when organised religion crawled off to die quietly, in the face of science's magnificent advance. I don't think like that any more. For all the stuff I hear about religious hypocrisy, I would say that on balance, the believers I have encountered make a much more positive contribution to the world around them than the average atheist.

 

I would probably still like organised religion to die; loudly or quietly (i am not fussy), but of the religious and non religious around me i would definitely say that neither does more nor less for the community than the other, neither is more nor less helpful to me. Anyway, back to work for me, so if you reply remember that i cannot until the weekend. Nice discussing with you.

[Hemanhead]

We Muslims believe this life is a test for the hereafter. A three year old with leukemia could be a test for someone else.

 

“He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed, and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving”. (Al-Qur’an 67:2)

 

A mass murderer, well you can hazard a guess as to how well he/she will fare in this test. But lets turn your point around. .....

 

I don't have time to reply to this now as i have to get myself to work but i will reply in the week if i can get myself to a computer. Enjoyed this discussion with you also.

[Purity14]

""A three year old with leukemia could be a test for someone else.""

 

This is often the case with Leukemia and any other Mental/Physical problems.

 

The child themselves may be an innocent, but the parents of the said child may have either sinned in the past or being tested for another purpose.

 

God creates these people outside the normal boundarys of others and certain rules are not applied to them as per Leviticus, and there is solutions to this in Psalms. As unfortunate and heartbreaking as it sounds the Child in question is mearly a pawn of God to test your faith.

[Thorin]

God does not play dice.

[Rob]

..or any stuff by EA Games.

[Guest Diematrosen]

""A three year old with leukemia could be a test for someone else.""

 

This is often the case with Leukemia and any other Mental/Physical problems.

 

The child themselves may be an innocent, but the parents of the said child may have either sinned in the past or being tested for another purpose.

 

God creates these people outside the normal boundarys of others and certain rules are not applied to them as per Leviticus, and there is solutions to this in Psalms. As unfortunate and heartbreaking as it sounds the Child in question is mearly a pawn of God to test your faith.

You couldn't make this stuff up. Oh, you just have.

[Rob]

So you're saying that gods provide child pawn?

[Guest Snaps]

I'm not usually any good at explaining what I'm trying to say, but I'm gonna come out of lurking and give it a try.

 

First of all, the point about gravity on the first few pages:

Gravity is an attraction between the atoms that make up everything, it was not created by anyone, or anything. It just is. It's along the same lines as what happens when you mix an acid and a base, two of the elements in them join together through an attraction to create a salt. Same sort of thing with gravity, it's just that the two objects are generally too chemically stable to react. Another example would be water beading together, or mercury.

 

About morality: Nothing about morality is really true. A murderer is viewed as morally wrong in most people's minds, or opinions, when in the murdurers mind or opinion, what they are doing is right, or is a means to a 'right' end. That is the reason they do those things...

 

In the end we are all just going to turn back into the elements/molecules that make us, and these molecules will become something else. Think about before you were born, what was there to you? Nothingness.... Which is exaclty what I believe is there after death. Especially considering our senses, thoughts, and everything we do is a fabrication of the movement of energy in our brains. When we die, these things stop happening, and we cease to exist (in our mind... the physical arrangement that is our body is still intact, but has no movement other than physical reactions [muscles tightening, etc.])

 

That's all I will say for the moment

[Matt H]

..or any stuff by EA Games.

 

Amen to that brother from another mother.

[tbourner]

All your above quotes are correct. Before properly accepting Islam, one of the major things that put me off it was what I believed to be this unfair clause where only Muslims seemed to be able to be guaranteed paradise. But that really isn't the case. Read carefully what it the link you provided says:

 

All RELIGIONS except Islam are not acceptable, not individuals. Hence why the Quran states for example;

 

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (2:62, 5:69)."

 

Verses 109:1-6 "Say : O ye that reject Faith!^ I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship.^ And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship.^ To you be your Way, and to me mine."

 

In regards to all your sins being forgiven when accepting Islam, its not as black and white as that. Conviction and true belief in your faith have to be present.

 

Is there a time limit on that? As a scientist my opinions and beliefs change as soon as I receive new data or evidence. So when I die and get taken before God I'd immediately change my views to that of a devout believer - does that mean i'm in?

 

What is good and what is evil? Dawking kept making reference to our sense of morality deriving from our genetic code. That's it. Just genetics. Emotions such as love, hatred, compassion are a result of mere physical reactions in the brain. Their quantitative value is subjective to every individual. In Islam and all religions these emotions have 'real value' simply because they are described as so by a deity, a higher power responsible for our creation and a power aware of all things. I argue that because of our perception and strong inclination towards morality, this alone should spark ones contemplation of an omnipotent being but this is my personal belief.

 

Ultimately, and I challenge any atheist to deny this; if there is no god, whether you are serial killer/rapist or a charity worker/ the most caring of individuals, you end up the same way. Dead. No memories, no accountability, nothing. I've heard atheist scientists claim that the purpose of life is essentially to reproduce. If that is what you believe then so be it but attributing a mere logistical value to our existence greatly diminishes any real value to the emotions we feel so strongly about. At the end of the day, its all just a bunch of matter. Or am I wrong? No doubt you will raise the point about morality because we are commanded by God vs morality emanating from the 'goodness in our hearts' being superior.

Sorry but I don't understand the problem, there's no point to life other than to live. If you can't see that life is beautiful as it is and you have to live in hope of something better then you're not seeing the world! There's some right 'orrible things in this world but that's the luck of the draw, every animal has hardships and some have it worse than others, physics involves a lot of randomness and that's where it comes from, it doesn't mean it's been designed.

 

We Muslims believe this life is a test for the hereafter. A three year old with leukemia could be a test for someone else.

 

“He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed, and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving”. (Al-Qur’an 67:2)

 

A mass murderer, well you can hazard a guess as to how well he/she will fare in this test. But lets turn your point around. What is the significance of the child suffering from leukemia and dieing at such a young age in the Atheist world? You have to face the harsh truth that if you are an atheist that all you can describe it as 'tough luck'. A mass murderer enjoys himself then dies peacefully. Is that fair? But an observant atheist might draw attention to the fact that there is no difference between the two scenarios. The end result is the same.

Again, so what? It is tough luck, same as it's tough luck for the rabbit that got shot at 2 months old.

 

That isn't true. Whilst punishment is a deterrent for many believers, the fact that God has stated what is good and what is evil PLUS our own morality and conscience compel us to do good and abstain from evil. Its not true that if believers have a crisis of faith, they will go on a rampage.

 

If I weren't a Muslim what would be the difference in the way I conduct myself? Well, I would exercise far less retraint in that I KNOW i would drink and smoke weed, have fun in strip clubs, sleep with lots of women etc. Basically do what almost atheists tend to do; Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (US Declaration of independence). In other words, I'll become a mere consumer.

I don't have a compulsion to do any of those things. It's another one of those random generations of code, my genetics tell me not to drink or smoke or have one night stands, other people's code tells them to go out beating people up for fun, and yet others tell them to believe in a God and believe in a better life after death. This randomness is there for the purpose of evolution, it's a beautiful fluke.

 

Exactly, what is his answer? There is no God? Fine but then be content with the 'fact' that his life is like that and whilst its not fair, it doesn't matter in the end when he expires (no offence intended).

 

What is the value of good and evil when you are dead?? In an atheist's world good and evil are just opposite ends of a spectrum.

Good and evil are only part of human life though, and humans are a rare breed in that we have intelligence which surpasses the usual order of evolution. We control our destiny with human rights and medicine, we don't allow the people to fight for survival and the minority to be killed off by the majority, or the weak of body to be killed off by disease.

If we didn't have our laws and society, we'd probably be a race of heartless strong willed ruffians who kill and steal what they need/want without care for those who are weaker, it's the intelligence that has gone beyond physical winners and altered our evolution. That yet again is pure random genetics.

 

Imagine a meteorite smashed into the planet killing all life and destroying the Earth; what happens to all that beauty, love, compassion, struggle, intellectual pursuit and the advancements made by mankind?

It gets blown to bits. We've only been around for about 30 seconds in the knowledge of the universe, it's hardly a great loss in galactic terms let alone universal, nobody would care, we consider it a great loss because of our feeble understanding of life and how 'precious' it is, but really, we're lucky to be here in the first place whether it be for 120 years or 20 minutes.

[Oddball87]

""A three year old with leukemia could be a test for someone else.""

 

This is often the case with Leukemia and any other Mental/Physical problems.

 

The child themselves may be an innocent, but the parents of the said child may have either sinned in the past or being tested for another purpose.

 

God creates these people outside the normal boundarys of others and certain rules are not applied to them as per Leviticus, and there is solutions to this in Psalms. As unfortunate and heartbreaking as it sounds the Child in question is mearly a pawn of God to test your faith.

 

Bull

[Septic]

I don't have time to reply to this now as i have to get myself to work but i will reply in the week if i can get myself to a computer. Enjoyed this discussion with you also.

 

No problem mate. I understand about work getting in the way! It was a really good discussion.

 

 

Is there a time limit on that? As a scientist my opinions and beliefs change as soon as I receive new data or evidence. So when I die and get taken before God I'd immediately change my views to that of a devout believer - does that mean i'm in?

 

There does appear to be a time limit on it. It is in this world that one has to believe; THIS is where we are being tested. Its like changing your answers to an exam paper AFTER you have seen your results and the answers to that exam. By your "I'm in" question I assume you mean into heaven?

 

I am not the judge on the matter, only God is. I would be committing Shirk if I were to say whether you're going to heaven or not.

 

Shirk in Islam means associating partners with God. It is THE MOST gravest sin one can commit in this life and it is the ONLY ONE that cannot be forgiven. A person could commit shirk by for e.g, taking every word of an imam as 'gospel truth', associating partners via idol worship or worshipping anything (be it football, women, wealth etc).

 

Thus, no one has the right to say who is going to heaven or hell. Obviously one can hazard a guess that a serial killer, rapist (basic generic evil dude) would not get into heaven but the Allah alone is the arbiter in deciding the latter person(s) fate. However, observe the following Hadith;

 

“If a believer were to know what punishment God has stored, he will despair and not a single one will anticipate making it to Paradise. If an unbeliever were to know the abounding mercy of God, not a single one will despair to make it to Paradise.” (Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Saheeh Muslim, Al-Tirmidhi)

 

“Indeed, My mercy supersedes my punishment.” (Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Saheeh Muslim)

 

 

Sorry but I don't understand the problem, there's no point to life other than to live. If you can't see that life is beautiful as it is and you have to live in hope of something better then you're not seeing the world! There's some right 'orrible things in this world but that's the luck of the draw, every animal has hardships and some have it worse than others, physics involves a lot of randomness and that's where it comes from, it doesn't mean it's been designed.

 

Its not that I cannot see the beauty this life has to offer but I'm just calling into question the relevance or the value of this beauty. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. A warmonger could find beauty in war, in observing mankind suffer. Have you played Fallout 3? If so, you know that guy who talks about the beauty of the atomic bomb you set off to destroy Megaton (if you're evil...I was was ....but I was good in the pc version!!).

 

You say there is no point to life other than to live and that is your personal belief. I completely understand what many on here are trying to say (including Dawkings) when it comes to savouring life and being in an extremely lucky position to even experience life and be here in the first place. However death is also part of life and all our sentiments about being lucky to experience life, beauty etc, they won't matter. I mean, you yourself say:

 

It gets blown to bits. We've only been around for about 30 seconds in the knowledge of the universe, it's hardly a great loss in galactic terms let alone universal, nobody would care, we consider it a great loss because of our feeble understanding of life and how 'precious' it is,

 

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. But then I think you go on to contradict yourself in the next sentence. So, it isn't a great loss (the destruction of life and beauty etc) i.e no one would care but then you say:

 

but really, we're lucky to be here in the first place whether it be for 120 years or 20 minutes.

Regardless of this, it doesn't matter though does it? You said so yourself in the above? The planet's destruction and our death- they are a similar loss and one that you describe as negligible. Thus, what you stated below;

 

Good and evil are only part of human life though, and humans are a rare breed in that we have intelligence which surpasses the usual order of evolution. We control our destiny with human rights and medicine, we don't allow the people to fight for survival and the minority to be killed off by the majority, or the weak of body to be killed off by disease.

If we didn't have our laws and society, we'd probably be a race of heartless strong willed ruffians who kill and steal what they need/want without care for those who are weaker, it's the intelligence that has gone beyond physical winners and altered our evolution. That yet again is pure random genetics.

 

...whilst the above may all be correct, it is of little relevance in regards to the ultimate fate of you and I and the rest of the human species.

 

I am speaking theoretically Tbourner. There is still so much we don't know. I hope you can see the point I'm trying to make.

 

DISCLAIMER: Septic isn't a crazy fanatic just because of his unnatural obsession with obtaining tactical nukes on Call of Duty:Modern Warfare 2 or the fact that he set off the Nuke in Megaton in Fallout 3.

[tbourner]

It gets blown to bits. We've only been around for about 30 seconds in the knowledge of the universe, it's hardly a great loss in galactic terms let alone universal, nobody would care, we consider it a great loss because of our feeble understanding of life and how 'precious' it is,

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. But then I think you go on to contradict yourself in the next sentence. So, it isn't a great loss (the destruction of life and beauty etc) i.e no one would care but then you say:

but really, we're lucky to be here in the first place whether it be for 120 years or 20 minutes.

 

Regardless of this, it doesn't matter though does it? You said so yourself in the above? The planet's destruction and our death- they are a similar loss and one that you describe as negligible. Thus, what you stated below;

 

Good and evil are only part of human life though, and humans are a rare breed in that we have intelligence which surpasses the usual order of evolution. We control our destiny with human rights and medicine, we don't allow the people to fight for survival and the minority to be killed off by the majority, or the weak of body to be killed off by disease.

If we didn't have our laws and society, we'd probably be a race of heartless strong willed ruffians who kill and steal what they need/want without care for those who are weaker, it's the intelligence that has gone beyond physical winners and altered our evolution. That yet again is pure random genetics.

 

...whilst the above may all be correct, it is of little relevance in regards to the ultimate fate of you and I and the rest of the human species.

 

I may have mixed up my comparisons of magnitude, the point I was implying was that the universe doesn't care about us and our lives, and if there is a creator who designed all this it would be similarly disinterested in this meaningless blip on the universal scale. However in our terms we are highly important and every single action we perform, every moment of living and every unnecessary death is important, so we attempt to rationalise it by saying God has a plan and it must be designed, and all this is a test etc. etc. whereas really it's just a giant fluke caused by randomness.

 

 

I don't play many games so have no idea what you're talking about, however I'm not one of those psychos who thinks people playing video games have secret desires to carry out those activities in real life!!

[Septic]

I guess we differ in our beliefs. I just cannot entertain the idea of everything being on giant fluke. It just doesn't fit into my perceptions of the universe and everything around us. I guess we have no choice to agree to disagree. But at least we did it peacefully!

 

See! It can be done on the mkivsupra forums!

[tbourner]

I guess we differ in our beliefs. I just cannot entertain the idea of everything being on giant fluke. It just doesn't fit into my perceptions of the universe and everything around us. I guess we have no choice to agree to disagree. But at least we did it peacefully!

 

See! It can be done on the mkivsupra forums!

 

You've made me think anyway, which is always a good thing.

[Septic]

And likewise. And now I shall get involved in a much-less intellectually demanding activity of shooting 12 year old american kids in the face (online of course)

[imi]

ok I got curious..........

 

Google.....typed in "Islam"

 

Top of the page clicked "how to convert to Islam"

 

A little way down the first page of text is the following.....

 

" Upon entering the fold of Islam purely for the Pleasure of God, all of one’s previous sins are forgiven, and one starts a new life of piety and righteousness. The Prophet said to a person who had placed the condition upon the Prophet in accepting Islam that God would forgive his sins:

 

“Do you not know that accepting Islam destroys all sins which come before it?” (Saheeh Muslim)

 

When one accepts Islam, they in essence repent from the ways and beliefs of their previous life. One need not be overburdened by sins committed before their acceptance. The person’s record is clean, and it is as if he was just born from his mother’s womb. One should try as much as possible to keep his records clean and strive to do as many good deeds as possible.

 

 

The Holy Quran and Hadeeth (prophetic sayings) both stress the importance of following Islam. God states:

 

“...The only religion in the sight of God is Islam...” (Quran 3:19)

 

In another verse of the Holy Quran, God states:

 

“If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter, he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (their selves in the Hellfire).” (Quran 3:85)

 

 

So we have the convenient (and usual part of a religious sales pitch?) don't worry about the past all that will be forgiven.....

 

.........followed by the bolded sections that seem to suggest the numpties following all other religions will be stoking the fires of hell with no doubt a long and antisocial shift pattern.

 

I am going to do some more reading of other links as I won't use this first instance to completely sway my thinking but this first forray into "keeping on thinking and learning" hasn't been that positive.....

 

better hand in that application form and collect your badge.....