Holy Wars

[tbourner]

I'm an evolutionary creationist.

[Abz]

Yeah - ok, fine.

 

But he did pull at least a paragraph from wikipedia in post # 35 to back up his claims on medical science.

 

I noted that there was a reference given on the evidence supporting the claims regarding the circumference of the planet, but no references on the rest of the 'evidence' provided - so I went looking to see where at least some of this 'evidence' came from and found some here. (Go to the second paragraph of the section entitled 'Islamic Middle Ages')

 

So he may be qualified - good on him.

 

But has he backed up "all his conclusions with examples, points & care" when at least some of his supporting evidence has been shown to be a cut & paste job from the Wikipedia site?

 

I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions as to the degree of care demonstrated by this.

 

As regards the whole debate about science vs religion, I'm abstaining from making any comment.

 

As well as Wikipedia sometimes being a rubbish form of examples, examples can be difficult to read in Arabic.

Remember not all the information in Wikipedia is inaccurate.

 

I am sure you would agree it is much better than posts which just sugguest a thought & then imply it as a rule\fact.

[Matt H]

A very silly and sweeping statement. You need to read up A LOT

before coming to a conclusion as opposed to your very erroneous opinion stated above.

 

You're right that my history isn't exactly an encyclopaedia of information, but from what I have read and been taught, especially where physics is concerned, I don’t actually remember being taught about any ‘great’ Muslim scientists or engineers. I suppose it’s because there has been more influential people out there to take the lime light. Sorry if any of your chaps didn't make the cut.

[Scott]

Why do people put so much emphesis in God and miss out the easter bunny, santa clause and the tooth fairy?

 

Should it not be imaginary comforter wars?

[Matt H]

Why do people put so much emphesis in God and miss out the easter bunny, santa clause and the tooth fairy?

 

Should it not be imaginary comforter wars?

 

There are two other reasons other than Hope, which are control and a lack of understanding.

[Digsy]

...I don't agree with your point that religion is based purely on faith. It's not, or at least as far as Islam is concerned. It is a MANDATORY duty on all Muslims to continue seeking knowledge (known as Hidayat in Islam). The Quran repeatedly hammers the message home; think, think and think again. Why else would it state that;

 

Will they not then, ponder over the Quran? If it were from other than Allah they would surely have found in it much discrepancies. [4:82]

 

Many people, having never picked up a religious script or made any attempt to assess it have arrived at their conclusions about it based purely on rumours and conjecture. Surely we can all agree that doing research in the things we debate will enable us to be better equipped in our discussions and lend our particular points more credibility?

 

If a particular religion encourages the search of knowledge then good for it, as long as it is knowledge without any pre-concieved conclusions. The statement from the Quran seems slightly circular to me, but if it is really saying "study this text and then make up your mind if you want to carry on beileveing it or not" then fine. I'm sure I coud write something that as a stand alone document all hangs together very nicely but might well fall apart if tested by an external independant assessor.

 

A few years back I wrote a very lengthy document on how engine breather systems work and a lot of people have since studied it. I've not had one person so far come back to me saying I have got anything wrong. Now, that could be because everyone who has read it has no choice but to believe it because my knowledge on the subject is superior to theirs. In that case they have faith in my text. I'd be chuffed to bits if someone else who really understands this stuff said "yep, that's spot on that is".

 

If that same person said "actually you've got that wrong - this is how it works instead". I'd be slightly embarrassed but ultimetaly better off for it.

 

I'd be well miffed off if that same person said "actually, I've read this bit and I think its wrong - I think this is what happens instead" without any form of proof. People are welcome to study it all they want but I you won't find a statement at the end saying "if you can't find anything wrong with this then it must be true". Anyone who has authored a properly published technical paper will know that it needs to cite references and be correctly vetted before it is formally released into the community.

 

And incidentally, even though you've specifically singled out a quote from the Quran I'd apply the same logic to any similar document.

 

If you think religious texts are of no real value and consist entirely of fairy tales without reading them then so be it. But excuse me for not taking your views and opinions seriously.

 

I don't need to or wish to study any or all religions or religious texts in order to opinionate on the concept or religion. I'm an Engineer with a scientific background so I tend to deal in absolutes every day. If I have to make a judgement call its usually based on my professional experience or that of my peers. But, know what? I'd love to think that there's something bigger better and wiser than all of us looking down, up, sideways or out from another dimenison, looking after us all. However, if I believe in anything its that in the enormity of the universe, if such a being exists, probability alone would determine that no-one on our tiny planet has got any real understanding of its true nature at all.

[Abz]

You're right that my history isn't exactly an encyclopaedia of information, but from what I have read and been taught, especially where physics is concerned, I don’t actually remember being taught about any ‘great’ Muslim scientists or engineers. I suppose it’s because there has been more influential people out there to take the lime light. Sorry if any of your chaps didn't make the cut.

 

Not everything gets taught in school you know

[AndrewOW]

Yep, like Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the bogeyman, etc.

 

There's such thing as god, except Thorin that is.

 

Number 42.

 

Why do people put so much emphesis in God and miss out the easter bunny, santa clause and the tooth fairy?

 

Should it not be imaginary comforter wars?

 

Err...

[Abz]

I don't need to or wish to study any or all religions or religious texts in order to opinionate on the concept or religion. I'm an Engineer with a scientific background so I tend to deal in absolutes every day. If I have to make a judgement call its usually based on my professional experience or that of my peers. But, know what? I'd love to think that there's something bigger better and wiser than all of us looking down, up, sideways or out from another dimenison, looking after us all. However, if I believe in anything its that in the enormity of the universe, if such a being exists, probability alone would determine that no-one on our tiny planet has got any real understanding of its true nature at all.

 

Just like the way you studied a book, some religious context has similar value. Science has been studied for such a long time but it still lacks a lot of answers. I'll stick to the scientists theory of point till proven, they have a long way to go but I wonder if they are just following a carrot on a stick.

[tbourner]

if I believe in anything its that in the enormity of the universe, if such a being exists, probability alone would determine that no-one on our tiny planet has got any real understanding of its true nature at all.

 

And that being has no real care for us, since it's got so many other things to look at and play with. We're not the centre of everything, we weren't 'created in his image', he doesn't give a crap about your prayers.

Basically, I believe in a creator but not a god.

[tbourner]

they [science] have a long way to go but I wonder if they are just following a carrot on a stick.

 

They are, but they're constantly finding ways to make the stick shorter. With religion the stick is infallible.

[Matt H]

Not everything gets taught in school you know

 

No of course not, but they tend to give you the best picture they can and the most influential contributors get a mention. When it came to the sciences, mathematics and the general pioneers of early technology, the focus evolved around the Greeks and other Europeans. When the eastern nations got a mention, it tended to be when wars and conquest were the topic of study - or of course when you were sat in a damn R.E class.

[Matt H]

Basically, I believe in a creator but not a god.

 

If you believe in anything supernatural, then you've got to be open to absolutly anything being possible.

[Septic]

Yeah - ok, fine.

 

But he did pull at least a paragraph from wikipedia in post # 35 to back up his claims on medical science.

 

I noted that there was a reference given on the evidence supporting the claims regarding the circumference of the planet, but no references on the rest of the 'evidence' provided - so I went looking to see where at least some of this 'evidence' came from and found some here. (Go to the second paragraph of the section entitled 'Islamic Middle Ages')

 

So he may be qualified - good on him.

 

But has he backed up "all his conclusions with examples, points & care" when at least some of his supporting evidence has been shown to be a cut & paste job from the Wikipedia site?

 

I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions as to the degree of care demonstrated by this.

 

As regards the whole debate about science vs religion, I'm abstaining from making any comment.

 

I did actually use Wikipedia for my sources, well not dorectly anyways, I used google to quickly search for certain terms but obviously I knew about the areas I was talking about hence me resorting to them in the first place. Where in any of my posts do you see me lay claim to me being some amazing intellectual who can remember and recite the exact dates kd the formation of a university or the exact names of specific Muslim scholars? Also, am I right in assuming Thorin did the same thing when refusing my post?

 

I'll list how I came by my featured references for you Soop if you mistrust my use of the sources:

 

* University: on the History channel. Also incidentally, a talk with some Christian friends I had quite a while ago led me to know the fact.

 

* Medicine and Islam: in school and in a BBC documentary that is actually repeated quite a lot which I think is called Science and Islam ( I would search for it but I'm late for work. If you remind me I will find out for you tonight)

 

*Hydrology: obviously I would have known about this as a sweeping search on Google and wikipedia would not have given me a specific example. There is a lot more on Hydrology I can post just citing the Quran if you want. I didn't even mention the water cycle, just a specific example on Dams. This was also shown on thhe science and Islam documentary as well as below:

 

* Algebra; common knowledge but I did quickly search it because whilst I knew the name derived from al jabr, I didn't know the name of its author or the father of algebra. Wikipedia provided his name although I just did a quick search on Google to quickly ascertain the aforementioned author.

 

I'm officially late for work but ill be on tonight to post again. Hope that satisfies you Soop. I'm not an advocate for wholesale reliance on Wikipedia but I don't believe there is anything wrong with referring to it to provide certain information like names and dates. Do you have the ability to remember all the names of authors and dates and detailed workings of areas of Hydrology, medical science, mathematics etc?

[Scott]

Err...

 

Pfft, I've said it in every religious thread since 2007. It's a farce. Nothing written by Man can be taken as 'gospel'. Look at the amount of crap spouted on this very forum, I take credit for a lot of it, it would be funny if that was all taken as the truth. Every religious quote I have ever read has a man's name before it, says it all to me. Show me something written, or shown, by something omnipitent and I'll start to pay attention... and no I don't mean one of those "He came to me in a dream" mushroom quotes.

 

 

I would like to add for the science boffins though...

 

In the grand scale of the universe we only invented the wheel 10 seconds ago. Noone can expect to understand the beginning of life as we know it. Science clutches at straws just as much as religious fanatics do. At least when the theory in science is eventually proven... they actually have proof. It wasn't because "Paul" or "John" or "Edward" wrote it in a book a few years back.

[AndrewOW]

[Matt H]

It wasn't because "Paul" or "John" or "Edward" wrote it in a book a few years back.

 

Or 'Matthew'

[AndrewOW]

Or 'Matthew'

 

 

Na, he was left out, as he couldn't spell.

[Nic]

Fortunately someone captured the Dawn of Man on their mobile phone.... FACT

 

U2iiPpcwfCA

[davej705]

science based on fact

religion based on myth and conjecture

 

I know which I choose to believe...

[Thorin]

In regards to your reply Thorin:

 

Circumference of the Earth:

 

The techniques used to measure the earth and the radius were done by Biruni, a muslim scholar. In fact, he is considered by many as the 'father of geodesy'.

 

Quote:

He found the radius of the earth to be 6339.6 km, a value not obtained in the West until the 16th century.

 

-John J. O'Connor, Edmund F. Robertson (1999). Abu Arrayhan Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Biruni

 

 

I'm not going to pick apart your other statements right now, as I'm sat on a conference call (bored as hell).

 

So Biruni found the radius of the earth first did he? Time for me to use wikipedia...

 

Abu Rayhan Biruni : born September 5, 978

Eratosthenes : born 276 BC

 

Eratosthenes wins! Flawless victory! \o/

[AndrewOW]

So, we're now onto Eastern/Western Scientist Top Trumps now?

 

I bet that'll be a best seller. Make sure you collect them all!

[Matt H]

Flawless victory! \o/

 

FINISH HIM...

 

 

 

Btw, I can do Wiki too:

 

Science in medieval Islam, also known as Islamic or Arabic science, is a term used in the history of science to refer to the science developed in the Islamic world prior to the modern era, particularly during what is known as the Islamic Golden Age (dated variously between the 7th and 15th centuries). In the course of the expansion of the Islamic world, Muslim scholars encountered the science, mathematics, and medicine of antiquity through the works of Aristotle, Archimedes, Galen, Ptolemy, Euclid, and others. These works and the important commentaries on them were the wellspring of science during the Medieval period. They were translated into Arabic, the lingua franca of this period; scientists within the Islamic civilization were of diverse ethnicity (a great portion were Persians[1][2] and Arabs,[2] in addition to Berbers, Moors and Turks) and diverse religious backgrounds (mostly Muslims,[3][4][5] in addition to many Christians and Jews,[6][7] as well as Sabians, Zoroastrians and the irreligious).[8][9]

 

Na, he was left out, as he couldn't spell.

 

Be careful Infidel or you'll be struck down

[Matt H]

So, we're now onto Eastern/Western Scientist Top Trumps now?

 

I bet that'll be a best seller. Make sure you collect them all!

 

I have the Hawkings card:

 

Intellect: 10

Knowledge: 10

Theories: 10

Novels: 10

Physics Power: 10

Mobility: 0

[Abz]

http://www.1001inventions.com/

 

Fatality

 

I win!