That cat didn't get the worst of it...

[Abz]

The question of what is cruel and what isn't cruel is subjective though. The determining factor in an argument such as this is the question of pain. Slitting the throat for example, renders the animal unable to feel pain because the blood vessels in the neck are severed and so is supply to the nerves (which are responsible for the sensation fo pain).

 

The kicking and writhing of the animal is a result of the sudden cut-off of blood supply to those requisite parts of the body (so Purity, if you were trying to imply something there- you fail ).

 

I love how people comment on pain, like the animals turn round and say I'd rather you stun me so then all the eletrics fry my brain. We have no idea what type of pain they go through, we can only assume or make slight calculations.

 

With regards to this video, we are failing to miss the point that she killed for entertainment, like fox hunting.

[Snooze]

With regards to this video, we are failing to miss the point that she killed for entertainment, like fox hunting.

 

How do you know she killed for entertainment? Maybe she just had 6 puppies to get rid of, that they couldn't afford to keep and nobody would take?

 

Anyway, I think the point is that having a chicken killed, just so I can eat a nice roast dinner is no better - it's being killed for my entertainment. I could sustain myself quite easily without eating that chicken. I just eat chicken because I LIKE it.

[tbourner]

I do NOT believe there is a "whole world of difference between the two". If you really believe that "meat for food isn't treated cruelly", then I, like Mike and RedM think you are deluding yourself.

 

Why do you think meat for food is treated cruelly then? I'm only getting my information from TV and what little websites I've read, which says there are more and more rules coming out all the time for keeping animals (chicken in most of the cases I've read about) and although the cheapest chicken meat (and eggs) is still from animals kept tightly packed together and suffering permanent disabilities because of conditions, there are also plenty of farms where animals are allowed space to roam and given a good life before being humanely killed.

I won't insult you by saying I'm alright cos I only buy free range eggs, obviously a lot of people don't, but I will say chickens seem to be the worst off in farming conditions, when you think 99% of farmers keeping cows/sheep/pigs for food treat them very well indeed.

But like I said, I haven't seen all there is to see from that world, I'm deluded in that sense, but from what I know I'm perfectly justified in saying it's COMPLETELY different to throwing puppies into a river and laughing.

[MaveriK]

With regards to this video, we are failing to miss the point that she killed for entertainment, like fox hunting.

 

Ehum.....

 

I do on the other hand think the person in the clip is killing for fun or whatever you want to call it and that is just plain wrong

 

 

How do you know she killed for entertainment? Maybe she just had 6 puppies to get rid of, that they couldn't afford to keep and nobody would take?

 

The Wooohooo gave it away some what and with regards to getting rid of i would hope that wherever she comes from there are animal shelters. Thinking about it hell probably doesnt have animal shelters.

[MaveriK]

But like I said, I haven't seen all there is to see from that world, I'm deluded in that sense, but from what I know I'm perfectly justified in saying it's COMPLETELY different to throwing puppies into a river and laughing.

 

Exactly, i like the cut of your jiblets sir!

 

I know i know, thats just offal.

[Snooze]

Quit it with the dodgy puns, please - I'm trying to take this seriously!

[nevins]

Quit it with the dodgy puns, please - I'm trying to take this seriously!

 

Seriously, well if you want serious how can you say that she did not do it for fun. Do you get bored and kick babies for your jollies shouting woohoo. As Im afraid that sound would imply that she enjoyed it.

[nevins]

Also in your previous post you said about the chicken being killed so you could eat it for your entertainment. Can you please explain this as I do not eat for entertainment, I eat to survive .

[Snooze]

Seriously, well if you want serious how can you say that she did not do it for fun. Do you get bored and kick babies for your jollies shouting woohoo. As Im afraid that sound would imply that she enjoyed it.

 

Maybe she just enjoyed throwing things in the river? She might have shouted "woohoo" whilst throwing rocks.....

 

PS. I shouldn't really have started this train of the argument, as I don't really believe it myself - she looks like she was showing off to the camera, and whilst I think deriving the fact that she "enjoyed" killing puppies is a bit extreme, she is clearly emotionally detached from their plight.

 

Also in your previous post you said about the chicken being killed so you could eat it for your entertainment. Can you please explain this as I do not eat for entertainment, I eat to survive .

 

So - my real point is that even if she did enjoy it, it's not really that different to me enjoying eating a KFC bucket. Both involve the needless death of animals. And I defy anyone to say they have to eat KFC to survive!!!!

You're not like the woman in the McDonalds drive thru clip, are you: "but how am I going to feed my family?"

[nevins]

cruelty to animals . the crime of inflicting physical pain, suffering or death on an animal, usually a tame one, beyond necessity for normal discipline. It can include neglect that is so monstrous (withholding food and water) that the animal has suffered, died or been put in imminent danger of death.

 

Now explain to me that nothing above applies to the clip.

[Snooze]

cruelty to animals . the crime of inflicting physical pain, suffering or death on an animal, usually a tame one, beyond necessity for normal discipline. It can include neglect that is so monstrous (withholding food and water) that the animal has suffered, died or been put in imminent danger of death.

 

Now explain to me that nothing above applies to the clip.

 

erm - I'm in know way saying that she is not being cruel to animals. I'm saying that so am I by eating factory-farmed meat.

[benkei]

It doesn't matter HOW they die - they're going to be aware of it, be it a gazelle with a lion wrapped around it's throat, or a chicken on one of those chicken-killing-conveyer belt-things.

I've never done it, but I guess dyeing isn't the most pleasant of experiences. But that's nature. The lion has to eat, so the gazelle has to die. I want some meat, so the chicken, cow, or pig has to die. I don't eat dogs, and neither does that girl. So is the killing necessary? Possibly. Maybe she has no means of looking after the puppies, and neither does anyone else where she lives. If there are no shelters for animals, what is she to do? People drown cats and puppies more than you think. And this is not WHY we are angry. We are angry because she's ENJOYING it! There is nothing enjoyable about killing an animal, unless of course you have hunted it and are killing it for food, but that's natural. Throwing puppies from a plastic bucket into a river and yelling 'WOOOOO!' while you do so is NOT natural, and is not acceptable.

As for animals playing with their food… Well they eat them don’t they? They live to eat; maybe that’s how they get a bit of enjoyment out of their lives?

 

The argument is basically, her actions do not sit well with anyone watching, or hearing about them. Therefore she is sick and needs help/extermination.

 

But if we kill her… do we have to eat her???

[nevins]

there's a big difference in it though. For example chicken farming, they are bread for one thing, There are laws that dictate the way that they are bread and raised. On the other hand these puppies were not. They were killed just for fun judging by the video.

 

The worst part is not the way that she is killing them but the suffering they will go through. If they were lucky they died quickly, but if not they would have suffered shock, trauma, and then drowning.

 

They will have suffered alot more than chickens will have at a humane chicken processing plant.

[Snooze]

There are laws that dictate the way that they are bread and raised.

 

Does the "law" help? I am choosing not to hide behind the law and admit to my own lack of morality.

 

They will have suffered alot more than chickens will have at a humane chicken processing plant.

 

Again - you are judging this purely on the manner of their death and not on the manner of their life. I believe it is impossible to say.

[nevins]

in the end of the day this was a sick thing done by a pathetic person. Theres is now way to defend that she was not in the wrong .

[RedM]

How many "vegetarians/vegans", have leather jackets/shoes/belts/seats/steering wheels?

 

Clear on all counts.

 

How many have carpets made from wool?

 

As above.

 

How many drink wine without realising most are made with isinglass?

 

Vegans wouldn't. Besides, AFAIK most wines these days do not contain Issinglass. Many lagers are fine too. Beer on the other hand......grrr......

 

How many eat chocolate/sweets containing gelatin?

 

Clear there too.

 

How many drive cars polluting the atmosphere and helping to kill off animals?

 

Nothing to do with veganism (see Donald Watson). See also Straw Man Argument.

 

How many own products that were made in some third world country where donkeys were beaten to death dragging timber/materials in order to make said product?

 

Fairly clear here. I think most of my clothing is ethically produced. However, things like my laptop or mobile may have been made by workers who worked long hours for little pay. Again though, nothing to do with veg*nism or AR. You have a thing for Straw Men.

 

 

in the end of the day this was a sick thing done by a pathetic person. Theres is now way to defend that she was not in the wrong .

 

I don't think that anyone has defended her.

[Purity14]

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-20015305-71.html

[Josh]

This has got out of hand, she is an idiot, she should be bashed about and drowned.

 

RIP puppies.

[SupraStar 3000]

Honestly,... there are some very sick individuals out there.

 

Anyone heard of "crush fetish"

In some cases, women in high heels stand on and kill small animals.

 

,... never underestimate the internet.

Just around the corner is another sick and twisted individual, waiting for there chance to shock and surprise.

[Gaz6002]

*waits for Tannhauser's take on militant veganism*

[Tannhauser]

*waits for Tannhauser's take on militant veganism*

 

You rang? OK, you asked for it.

 

 

On food production/vegans:I think there's a big danger of anthropomorphising animals, by which I mean projecting human feelings and concepts onto animals. There can sometimes be an assumption that animals live better lives without human exploitation or interference. This might be because - for example - we have a concept of 'freedom' which is associated with 'good'. But a chicken, I'm pretty confident in saying, has no concept of freedom. Animals in the wild often live wretched lives, dogged with disease, injury, starvation, predation and so on.

 

So philosophically, I've got no problem with the idea of animals being on farms, because that doesn't necessarily mean that an animal has a worse life.

 

BUT having said that, I think that the reality is that the vast majority of food production is probably pretty ghastly. A chicken might not have a concept of freedom, but it can still suffer as a result of being confined in a small space. Farming isn't set up to minimise animal suffering, and never will be.

 

To be honest, and I say this as an avid meat-eater, I think there's zero justification in a comparatively rich western country for eating other mammals (I won't include fish -that's another story). I used to justify it to myself from a protein intake point of view -but there are plenty of vegan lifters who outlift me. I absolutely don't buy the "it's natural to eat animals" argument -so what? It's 'natural' to let premature babies die at birth, yet we don't use that as a justification. World wide, I think meat production causes enormous environmental damage and economic hardship.

 

I think sniping at vegans as being hypocrites is seriously missing the point. On the most 'hypocritical' day of his life, the average vegan is doing better than I am in terms of minimising animal suffering.

 

With regard to the moral comparisons with the puppy-killer, I think Snooze is pretty much on the money with his posts. I don't eat free-range eggs or any of that stuff. So while I'm not causing animal suffering for my own malicious entertainment or sadistic desires, I am doing it through laziness and complacency and sheer physical pleasure from the flavour. And I don't even beat myself up about it.

[supra steveo]

terrible that, absolutly sick , how many kids all over the world would have loved one of those puppies

[Septic]

Tan, you never cease to impress me with your informative, eloquent and well thought out posts. I agree with the vast majority of your sentiments. We need more people like you on the forum.

[Tricky-Ricky]

Hmm my take was that it was the vegans/vegetarian's that started the criticism of those of us that eat meat but are also animal lovers.

 

Anyway i hope this has run its course and dose not stand as a platform for the more argumentative just to make some obscure points.

[hogmaw]

Isn't drowning unwanted puppies something that's been going on for centuries, ever since dogs were domesticated? It might appear inhumane actually witnessing it from watching the video, especially as the girl appears to take delight in doing the ghastly deed, but it's hardly new news.