Paper Today....

[Purity14]

If we are wrong, then it doesn't matter because we're all dead!

 

What about if we are right, and you are wrong.

Would you consider changing your faith, at the gates to Christian heaven?

[Matt H]

The question is obsolete. The value of your enjoyment is irrelevant. It will be as if you didn't exist.

 

 

I am not assuming you are selfish. I am asserting the fact that you CAN BE. You CAN BE Hitler or Mother Teresa. Its a bit like playing Fallout 3 really. Evil and Good...the people you can kill are merely polygons/textures etc....in this life...people are merely biological entities. Ultimately nothing matters because everything is destined to be destroyed simply because of OUR destruction and deletion of our memories.

 

 

Don't meant to be patronising like you often are, but it sounds to me like you have trouble with your mortality. Not sure whether you're the type that needs to think there's something more, or thinks there has to be something more.

[Septic]

Of course I don't want it reposting here, I'll get in trouble

 

It sounds like you showed the Quran (pardon my butchering of the exact way that's written) can be interpreted as predicting some natural phenomena, but that's not really the discussion here(that's more like a Nostradamus issue). I'm just after proof that a god exists

 

Not just "it was written in a book a long time ago" otherwise I might as well believe in King Lear. I mean repeatable observations of predictable and consistent behaviour, from which you can draw conclusions and make working theories. Like, I dunno, lighting a lightbulb to prove electricity flows and using that to develop a theory of electrical conductivity in metals based on electrons and so forth.

 

While I've never myself witnessed individual electrons shuffling about, I don't need blind faith in what I've read as I know with the right gear, and following the work already done in the world, I can 100% reproduce the exact findings of everyone else who's ever looked into electrical conductivity. Can't say I've ever seen a talking burning bush though, or had the seas divide so I can drive to France while avoiding the Chunnel fare (which is a shame ).

 

I'm trying my best to not be antagonistic. I'm more trying to demonstrate what some of us unwashed atheists would need in order to be convinced. If you can't provide that level of proof (and somehow I don't think it'll be forthcoming otherwise I'd have had a lightning bolt up my ass midsentence), then you may as well tell me to believe 2+2 = 5 no matter what science and maths say otherwise Hopefully that doesn't make you angry.

 

-Ian

 

Lol that doesn't make me angry man. Sigh, I wonder what kind of impression i relay on here lol.

 

That's a really good post and I understand your sentiments better. You are correct, in that, the level of proof you desire is not forthcoming for the reasons you highlighted.

 

I guess it depends on the varying levels of 'proof' we are willing to except, one not necessarily being superior to the other. For example, personally I believe in the embryological cycle and the water cycle and whilst having not observed the intricacies of how the latter cycles function I believe in the various stages that occur. Similarly, I believe in the theory of probability and thus, taking into account the probability that an illiterate man in the desert 1400 years ago could accurately relay the correct 'scientific' information and miss out the much-prevalent erroneous ones, presents to ME, a compelling argument and proof of God's existence. Taking into account this and various other factors (other messages in the Qur'an, prophecies in the Bible, Torah and Hindu scriptures) solidifes my faith so to speak in Islam. This continued belief however is a constant process and is subject to change.

 

You demand an absoluteanswer, or proof of God's existence and that, I feel, would only be fulfilled by the actual presence, here, of a deity. That is why I guess your answers won't be forthcoming and you will remain an atheist. This will most likely be irrelevant to you, but the Qur'anic argument is that it is futile for God to descend with a retinue of angels otherwise the matter would already be judged.

[Septic]

Don't meant to be patronising like you often are, but it sounds to me like you have trouble with your mortality. Not sure whether you're the type that needs to think there's something more, or thinks there has to be something more.

 

I'm only patronising to you because of your FIRST EVER reply to a post I made

 

No, I'm not having trouble with my morality. And no, if I have a crisis of faith I am not going to rape and pillage the world. I'm discussing this simply out of interest as Martini understands.

[Septic]

What about if we are right, and you are wrong.

Would you consider changing your faith, at the gates to Christian heaven?

 

My faith isn't as arbitrary as an allegiance to a flag. If I am at the gates to a Christian heaven then who on Earth wouldn't change their mind lol?! I'd have to be a stubborn S.O.B to opt to go to hell instead

[Matt H]

I'm only patronising to you because of your FIRST EVER reply to a post I made

 

Let's just get one thing right, if a qoute is good, it doesn't matter where it came from

 

No, I'm not having trouble with my morality. And no, if I have a crisis of faith I am not going to rape and pillage the world..

 

Where's that come from? I never sugested that. A man on the edge now I see

 

I'm discussing this simply out of interest as Martini understands.

 

I wouldn't know what he's said, he's been on my ignore list for a long time now. Best place for him.

[Septic]

It wasn't a quote Matt H.

 

The question was on my morality- I just mentioned the most morally abbhorrent factors to give you an idea

 

Originally Posted by Septic

I'm discussing this simply out of interest as Martini understands.

 

I wouldn't know what he's said, he's been on my ignore list for a long time now. Best place for him.

 

Oh okay. Well I wasn't aware of this lover's tiff. Well, his input is pretty important in this discussion otherwise you won't get the gist of my post.

[RedM]

Blairs govt was far too PC they have completley bolloxed this country.

 

The Tories seem no better. Cameron is to allow India to have a direct say in UK immigration policy.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jul/28/david-cameron-india-immigration

 

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. That's foreign, that is.

[Matt H]

It wasn't a quote Matt H.

 

Are we on about the same thing? The 'absentee landlord' quote from The Devil’s Advocate?

 

Pretty apt I'd say, regardless of religious orientation.

 

Btw, you can call me Matt - No need for the formalities

[Purity14]

If I am at the gates to a Christian heaven then who on Earth wouldn't change their mind lol?! I'd have to be a stubborn S.O.B to opt to go to hell instead

 

Then your faith isnt strong enough. If, as a Christian I turned up at your blue-carpeted/faux gold statured gates. I would just BELIEVE so hard, that I actually went to Heaven.

 

I would understand that it was the final test of faith from Jesus.

 

We do a great price on Ex-Muslim Programs down at my local Church. I can understand that it would be a hard thing to do, and that it could take some getting used to. But the world wasnt built in 8 days, right?

[martini]

I'm only patronising to you because of your FIRST EVER reply to a post I made

 

No, I'm not having trouble with my morality. And no, if I have a crisis of faith I am not going to rape and pillage the world. I'm discussing this simply out of interest as Martini understands.

 

Thanks.

 

Oh okay. Well I wasn't aware of this lover's tiff. Well, his input is pretty important in this discussion otherwise you won't get the gist of my post.

 

I don't think he'd get it anyway, Septic.

 

Matt's ignored me because I don't tolerate his nonsense.

[Septic]

Are we on about the same thing? The 'absentee landlord' quote from The Devil’s Advocate?

 

Pretty apt I'd say, regardless of religious orientation.

 

Btw, you can call me Matt - No need for the formalities

 

No its not that quote. Just your general reply to a mere query I made.

[Matt H]

No its not that quote. Just your general reply to a mere query I made.

 

Righty'o then.

[Septic]

Then your faith isnt strong enough. If, as a Christian I turned up at your blue-carpeted/faux gold statured gates. I would just BELIEVE so hard, that I actually went to Heaven.

 

I would understand that it was the final test of faith from Jesus.

 

We do a great price on Ex-Muslim Programs down at my local Church. I can understand that it would be a hard thing to do, and that it could take some getting used to. But the world wasnt built in 8 days, right?

 

With your analogy, I was assuming that everything was proven wrong and the so-called Christian heaven was proven.

 

Trust me, a Muslim would have a lot of questions to ask if he were invited to a Christian heaven. Afterall, we do believe in similar scripture and we do believe in Jesus Christ (p.b.u.h) albeit not as the Son of God.

 

"...and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82).

[michael]

Wake me up when we get back onto the crash helmet vs face coverings thing please.

[martini]

Have there been any reports of crimes being carried out with people wearing the niquab?

 

There have been for crash helmets and balaclavas; neither of which are religious dress.

 

Perhaps criminals should don the niquab?

[Purity14]

With your analogy, I was assuming that everything was proven wrong and the so-called Christian heaven was proven.

 

You seemed to flick between the two quite quickly, you didnt mention that you would need convincing?

 

What kind of proof would God need to show you?

 

(yes, see what I did there?)

[michael]

Have there been any reports of crimes being carried out with people wearing the niquab?

 

There have been for crash helmets and balaclavas; neither of which are religious dress.

 

Perhaps criminals should don the niquab?

 

 

Wasn't it the garment of choice for some of the male 7/7 bombers to escape in?

 

Or maybe it was someone else who used it.

 

I don't have one but I still like Jews.

[martini]

Wasn't it the garment of choice for some of the male 7/7 bombers to escape in?

 

Or maybe it was someone else who used it.

 

I don't have one but I still like Jews.

 

Quite possibly, I'm not sure.

 

I also like Jews.

 

I'm 1/4 Jewish actually, but it was cut away.

[Vicky]

I have no opinion on the face covering at all but somehow the balance isnt right in our society.

 

For example it was mentioned earlier on that a lady who worked in an office was asked to remove a christmas decoration because it offended someone. If however that lady was offended by somebody wearing a burkah and asked them to remove it she would probably be in trouble!

 

Also when the world cup was on the taxi drivers in my area were not allowed to fly St Georges flags on their taxes because they offended.

 

Im all for varying beliefs and religions, but if i am to accept someone else's, i expect them to accept mine.

[Septic]

You seemed to flick between the two quite quickly, you didnt mention that you would need convincing?

 

What kind of proof would God need to show you?

 

(yes, see what I did there?)

 

I'll chat to you about this via PM. I've already steered this way off-topic.

 

I'm 1/4 Jewish actually, but it was cut away.

 

Ahahha!

[michael]

Im all for varying beliefs and religions, but if i am to accept someone else's, i expect them to accept mine.

 

You believe in Christmas trees and flags?

[Vicky]

You believe in Christmas trees and flags?

 

 

And the tooth fairy, doesnt everyone

[Matt H]

And the tooth fairy, doesnt everyone

 

Defo, the fairy used to drop me off 50p a tooth!

[Shane]

Well Dude thats our Government fault that they appear to seemingly bend over for Muslims (which I don't believe is the case). But Dude, you are wrong about about the treatment of Westerners in some Muslim countries. Having lived in Pakistan, prior to 9/11, white people were (and still are) treated with more superiority. When it came to restaurants, hotels, security and prestige, white people were treated more respectfully. Even allowances on strict rules regarding the sale and consumption of alcohol were (and still are) levied.

 

In regards to strict dress codes, its something very important in Islamic culture not to have womens assets on liberal display. Islamaphobia is rearing its head in a new way which fuels some resentment against certain elements of its culture. But fair enough, if people in this country want to ban the niqab then it should be banned and Muslims but abide by that rule. That is also the rule Islamically.

 

 

In regards to newspapers like the Daily star, I'm sorry but its not a case of me being biased that I don't like such publications. They are misinformative and go out of their way to sensationalise news to the extent that they often lie to gain reader attention or control them. Just look at that GTA headline. What a load of toss. Honestly, they are just garbage articles and I would steer clear of them. You don't have to be a genius to work that out. It's like saying Fox News is the epitome of unbiased journalistic integrity.

 

Havnet read all of this thread yet, but got this far and had to respond.

 

I lived and worked in Pakistan for 3 months just after 9-11, I was in based in Quetta and travelled most days to Kandihar across the border into Afghanistan. On a friday we were told not to go out unless we were prepared to dress in shalwar Khamis and cover up our faces as much as possible as after the Mullars had said their bit at prayertime there were lynch mobs looking to give Westerners a good kicking and worse. Two of our guys had their heads caved in with stones and we had our compound torched. All on the holy day.