TD04 based hybrids install

[wojtrek]

OK, the boost leaks like suspected were irrelevant, too small to have any affect, so it's the same, same boost pattern.

 

APEXi AVC-R maxed out, 0.95 peak for a moment, then steady 0.85 to redline. ditched the AVC-R and I put my MBC instead, MBC set at 1.1-1.2 and still only getting the same 0.95 peak and steady 0.85 to redline.

 

i'm totally puzzled

[trinitom]

did you have a look at the pressure tank under the intake manifold?

[Scott]

How do you know the mbc is set at 1.2? Surely you can only set that on the car?

[Chris Wilson]

If the two small bore pipes to the pressure tank are on the wrong way around it will give boost issues.

[wojtrek]

i didn't visually check the pressure tank, but it holds pressure, because after drivinf, when I pop a hose I can hear pressure escaping the system, so it does hold pressure.

 

I set the MBC with a special tool, it's like a hand pump/gun with a vacuum and pressure gauge, used for testing vacuum systems on cars.

[Scott]

I still don't follow how you set the mbc off the car. What did you set it to? I don't think you can just set it to 1.2 as that wouldn't take into account the actuated spring pressure. Saying that it should overboost in that situation.

[Wez]

If I was you I would get it on a dyno and do some basic tests while graphing the engine load, ie do a run in seqential, do a run in parallel, do runs at different boost settings etc.

 

At least this way you have a visual reference for how each change is affecting the curve, would also be good to monitor your AFR

[Suprab1]

My first turbo makes 0.8 bar. Why do you say this is too much?

[wojtrek]

well, my stock twins made 0.7bar on the first turbo and 0.8 after transition. I also read, that others had 0.7 or 0.6, my friend has 0.65 or 0.7, so I thought 0.7 is normal. OK, if you have 0.8, it's probably not unusual.

Unusual though is the big drop of pressure during transition, it goes down to 0.4bar.

 

Talking about MBC / EBC - the point is, even with the hoses pulled off of the actuator I still have solid 0.85 boost to redline when I should have a lot more. no matter if I have the MBC on, AVC-R or just pull hoses, I always get the same boost pattern - after transition, a peak/spike of 0.95bar, and then, say, 4500 to 7000rpm a steady 0.85 bar. and I mean stedy, not 0.8-0.9, but only maybe floating between 0.84-86 like it was controlled by something...

 

I have a high flow steel cat on my car (http://www.suprastore.com/higflowsupca.html this), maybe something happened to it thus restricting the flow needed to spool the turbos higher?

 

If I was you I would get it on a dyno and do some basic tests while graphing the engine load, ie do a run in seqential, do a run in parallel, do runs at different boost settings etc.

Wez, like I wrote before - I own a dyno, I have a rolling road in my workshop - all testing is done on it. So I have graphs of every test - all I can see from it, is that along with the big drop of pressure during transition I also have a big drop in torque...

Edited June 15, 2010 by wojtrek
added a quote (see edit history)

[wojtrek]

A little update

 

I got rid of the cat (turned out it wasn't metal), now the car (same setup minus cat) boosts 0.1-0.2 higher. putting the MBC too takes it even higher.

 

so to goes like this

 

with the cat on, all I was able too boost was 0.8bar first turbo, and 0.95 peak after transition, dropping to 0.85 at redline. this setup dynoed 350bhp.

 

cat off, without the MBC on first turbo (only AVCR maxed out) I hit peak 1.0 dropping to around 0.95ish - that dynoed 400bhp! with bearly 1bar of boost.

strange thing is that removing the cat caused the pressure on the first turbo to drop from 0.8 to 0.65 - weird! back to stock levels or something.

 

I put the MBC back on (the Stu Hagen mod), raised the boost a bit - now I got 0.9bar first turbo and 1.1peak after transition dropping to 1.05ish at redline - dynoed it = 420bhp / 517Nm=380ft/lb.

 

these two dyno pulls (400 and 420) together:

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1251/mochybrydybezkatvsdodan.th.gif

 

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

for those who don't understand Nm, it's 450Nm = 330 ft/lb on the first turbo at 0.9bar. it's 275 at 0.6.

also, once the MBC is fitted (red/brown) you can notice that the turbo spools quicker. it's especially noticeable at part throttle, almost instant boost...

 

on a cool evening, in 4th gear (or higher) I hit 1.2bar and it's solid to redline, the car is even faster (maybe 440?) but evidently lacking in fuel, in 5th (motorway pulls 130mph+) basically undriveable = jerking etc. so I need to start thinking about some fuel control.

[Scott]

What can you take these turbos to efficiently? 1.6?

 

I think everyone assumed you had both CATS out. The first CAT puts a massive restriction on the exhaust flow, much like a restrictor ring, allowing the wastegate to do its job properly and let the gas out at 0.8bar. That is the reason you saw stock levels. Not so sure about the 0.65 though, maybe it was REALLY restrictive

 

Nice to see you having good results so far. I'm not sure if 500 will be attainable but fingers crossed for you

[wojtrek]

well, I had both stock cats out - I had an aftermarket downpipe with a 'high flow cat' - it wasn't that high flow as advertised...

 

i think 1.4bar will be maxing these, and anything more will be just boiling the air.

 

now I need to tune this and have no idea what with, what piggyback, if any, will handle tuning a MAF supra?

 

I also have a greddy SMIC and 272 HKS cams waiting to go on the car, that should also make some power.

[CanisLupus]

Why don't you get the AEM Stand Alone ECU and convert it to MAP instead of MAF?

You could surely go higher then

[patrik]

how about an update on this it was really educational reading.

since im going around thinking about the same upgrade :-)

its nice that someone else is the guinepig and takes the heat

and i can come along a copy all the results

[patrik]

bump

[wojtrek]

Here's a little update for those interested.

Didn't have much time, so my HKS264s are still not in the car, have not been able to control boost reliably with my apexi avcr etc.

I dynoed the car today, 18C ambient temp, the hybrids boost 0.75bar before transition (420Nm or 309ft/lb at 3000rpm), and go up to 1.1bar, peak at 1.15 (where max TQ is, btw 577Nm i 425ft/lb), and fall to 1.1 or just slightly below 1.1. this is what the dyno showed:

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8118/supra110115bar.gif

 

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

the current setup is stock engine, Greddy SMIC, Tanabe Medallion, downpipe and no cats.

 

I have no idea why I cant go higher than 1.2bar. The apexi is maxed out, I may have problem with some actuator, VSVs or sth. I tested them many times but to no avail.

I will be putting my HKS VPC instead of my MAF, will dyno then too.

I'm thinking that maybe I have problems with wastegate, maybe it's a 1bar wastegate and it will just open under pressure from exhaust gasses? Or am I talking rubbish?

[Chris Wilson]

I suspect you need a restrictor pill in the wastegate circuit, have a look at these Webinars, in posted order. The boost control solemoid will probably no longer be able to bypass enough air flow to make the boost raise high enough. You may need a stronger spring in the wastegate though.

 

http://motec.adobeconnect.com/p28458651/?launcher=false&fcsContent=true&pbMode=normal

 

http://motec.adobeconnect.com/p1wswxigop9/?launcher=false&fcsContent=true&pbMode=normal

Edited June 19, 2011 by Chris Wilson (see edit history)

[wojtrek]

if anyone is interested, I have finally found out what was the reason I couldn't push these beyond 1.1bar - the wastegates started to crack open at 1.1bar. You can see the point when they start to open on the dyno chart above - there's a decline that starts at 5100rpm. No matter what I did, I always had this decline from around 5000rpm.

I used a wire to manually shut them and it helped - I could then run them up to 1.6 bar, but since I was running on a stock ECU this wasn't too safe. I used HKS VPC to delete MAF and run higher boost but probably due to my SMIC (although it's Greddy) not being sufficient or something else I couldn't pass 450hp.

I think these hybrids are good to around 460hp with a decent IC and tuning, maybe more? Since I had 430hp at 1.1bar which is more than the max I had on stock turbos (at 1.3bar I had 420hp AFAIR)

 

Anyway, these are already out of the car and soon I will share what I have put into my car - the ultimate street turbo I guess.

the car is already running on it, but I will tune it soon, put finishing touches etc.

so expect extensive video and dyno coverage soon

[patrik]

Nice to hear that you still are running the supra.

I really liked to see you do this since i was of a similar thougt myself.

For me ive sold and bought 2-3 supras since this so will see if i decide to come back to the supras they are really very good cars.

[Nic]

if anyone is interested, I have finally found out what was the reason I couldn't push these beyond 1.1bar - the wastegates started to crack open at 1.1bar. You can see the point when they start to open on the dyno chart above - there's a decline that starts at 5100rpm. No matter what I did, I always had this decline from around 5000rpm.

I used a wire to manually shut them and it helped - I could then run them up to 1.6 bar, but since I was running on a stock ECU this wasn't too safe. I used HKS VPC to delete MAF and run higher boost but probably due to my SMIC (although it's Greddy) not being sufficient or something else I couldn't pass 450hp.

I think these hybrids are good to around 460hp with a decent IC and tuning, maybe more? Since I had 430hp at 1.1bar which is more than the max I had on stock turbos (at 1.3bar I had 420hp AFAIR)

 

Anyway, these are already out of the car and soon I will share what I have put into my car - the ultimate street turbo I guess.

the car is already running on it, but I will tune it soon, put finishing touches etc.

so expect extensive video and dyno coverage soon

 

Is yours a J-spec or Euro Spec Supra? You say you have the stock ECU fitted, do you also have the stock fuel injectors?

 

If the GReddy SMIC is in decent condition it should be more than up to the job, there are members on here with aftermarket SMIC's running single turbos at around 550-600hp, it won't be that limiting the power, it'll be the stock ECU and fueling.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Nic (see edit history)

[wojtrek]

My car is Euro spec, 550 injectors, with mass air flow sensor, but I removed the MAF with a HKS VPC.

The HKS VPC is working fine in my friend's supra with a Greddy TD07S and around 530bhp, apart from the turbos, the cars are exactly the same, euro spec, 550 injectors. So I really don't know why wasn't it making more power with more boost. If it's not the Greddy SMIC (still looks like new), then I don't know. I'm also running single turbo now, with the same setup (injectors, SMIC, HKS VPC) and I already have 500bhp.

 

and patrik, I don't think I will ever sell my supra

Edited May 5, 2012 by wojtrek (see edit history)

[Hellstrom]

Interesting read, What made you decide to go back to single turbo again? since it seemd you have done that before. and why did you ditch the idea with hybrid turbos? i can only asume that you wanted more power then 400bhp? i have access to a set of hybrid turbos that i might try, think they are 47mm compressor inducer. or atleast close to that. i would also like to stay with the sequential system. so any tips would be apriciated!

 

 

Regards

Johan

[wojtrek]

Interesting read, What made you decide to go back to single turbo again? since it seemd you have done that before.

before the hybrids, I had the GT3076R turbo, but at that time I had a cat (although a high-flow) which now I know was very power limiting. I always wanted the widest power range possible, I thought that since even a small turbo like the GT30 is not 'wide' enough for me I need to go back to a sequential setup. I found the hybrids here and gave it a try.

 

I can only asume that you wanted more power then 400bhp? i have access to a set of hybrid turbos that i might try, think they are 47mm compressor inducer. or atleast close to that. i would also like to stay with the sequential system. so any tips would be apriciated!

Yeah, 400 is not enough. But with these hybrids I think 450-460 is not a problem with good tune with some piggyback or standalone. If that is enough for you - go for it.

 

But now I have put a turbo that has a very wide power range, almost as good as the sequential setup, but capable of 600hp. I will post the results as soon as I have finished tuning it.

All I will say now is that with this turbo, in 6th gear on the road, I see 1.0 bar at 2650rpms, and that's before tuning, so with stock ignition timing That is almost exactly like the first hybrid turbo.

cheers

[GRIM]

Can you show me some pictures of install?

 

do you leave stock turbos back housing and install td04's in them?

 

Or you have to modify the back housing of td04 to fit stock 2jz exh. manifold?

 

pics would be great