TD04 based hybrids install

[wojtrek]

Hi, since a few people asked to start this thread - here it is.

 

I bought these from Swampy442.

 

I have a European LHD version of the Supra, it's a 94 TT 6sp. I have a Tanabe Medallion exhaust (the quiet one), downpipe and blitz intake. Stock sidemout, stock engine with 245000kms on the clock (that's 150.000+ miles ) the engine is perfect, doesn't use any oil between changes. Even after 50+ laps on a track day

 

I just took my car apart, had a GT3076R (the biggest 1.06 A/R) on it, but really missed that torque at 2000rpm. And it turns out, that 500 crank is not really possible with the gt3076, it's even hard to reach 470 (one guy here in Poland has 478 crank but with 272 cams). Since my Supra is my daily driver, I wanted something that would be a bit more powerful than stock, but retain the bottom end torque that the standard supra has. Also, I like how a stock car works, with a single conversion there are always problems, idle, part-throttle, etc. it's never as perfect as stock. And with the gt30 I had 0.5bar at 3000rpm, which wasn't tragic, but poor compared to stock. I bought the GT30 because that was a lot cheaper than buying the GT28 based hybrids from speedforsale. 3k$ plus shipping and import taxes, which take it to 4k$ is steep, plus your old turbos - hence the GT30 (amuse supra was my goal).

but when I saw these td04 based for sale here, the decision was quick and simple. I guess I was lucky - more people wanted these. I just hope that they will meet my expectations.

 

I can't really say anything about them - I don't know where they come from originally. But I took them apart and compared to stock turbos - I have an EDM Supra, so the same as UKDM, not the japanese turbos.

The difference is in the compressor wheel, it is the same diameter, but the inlet is bored out to 48mm AFAIR, stock is AFAIR 38mm, don't remember correctly, but the diameter on the hybrids is 10mm bigger. So the same goes for the diameter of the compressor wheel, the larger diameter is the same as stock, at 58mm, but the smaller diameter is 48. That's around 60% bigger inlet area (11.3cm2 vs 18cm2).

the exhaust part looks pretty similar, the difference is only in the shape of the blades, maybe the wheel is made from a different material, but I don't know that. no difference in the size.

 

I don't want to guesstimate how much power I can get from them, I made 415-420 at the crank on stock turbos (bearly 1.1-1.2bar) with full exhaust and an intake. so given the fact, that the compressor wheel is significantly larger and the fact that they can withstand 1.4bar thanks to the 360 bearings, I think something between 460-500 should be doable. I have a Greddy side mount (I want to keep the front active spoiler) but will probably install it after I test these at stock boost levels to have a comparison with the stock turbos - I own a dyno, so dyno time is no problem here I made 50+ dyno tests on my car already.

anyway, another gain from these more 'durable' turbos is the fact that I can crank the boost of the first turbo. 0.9-1bar should net 450+ (330+ lb/ft) from as early as 2200-2400rpm. IIRC I had 390Nm (288lb/ft) from the first stock turbo. so maybe even 100Nm (75lb/ft) more is doable.

 

As to how these compare to the GT28 hybrids - the GT28 have a 60mm compressor wheel (so only 2mm larger) and the same inlet diameter - so no significant difference here. The exhaust side is not that bigger than stock - only 1mm on the larger diameter and 3mm on the smaller diameter. I'm not sure I measured the exhaust side because they look so similar on my td04 hybrids, if it's only 3mm difference I may have not noticed that - I'll probably measure it just to be sure, I'll uninstall them from the manifold as I already screwed them on...

 

I'm currently uninstalling all the leftovers from my single setup and in the process of collecting all the necessary gaskets etc for the stock setup. So don't expect dyno numbers tomorrow or sth, but I will keep you posted on how they behave.

 

Here are comparison photos of the hybrids vs stock turbos.

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/1808/turbohybridvsstock.th.jpg

 

Uploaded with ImageShack.u00s

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/8736/turbohybridvsstock2.th.jpg

 

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http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/5294/turbohybridvsstock3.th.jpg

 

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http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/1336/turbohybridvsstock4.th.jpg

 

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http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5194/turbohybrid1.th.jpg

 

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http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1736/turbohybrid2.th.jpg

 

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http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/3696/turbohybridexh.th.jpg

 

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http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/9082/turbohybridexh2.th.jpg

 

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

cheers,

Wojtek

[Gaz6002]

Interesting project. You'll need a lot of tyres making that kind of torque at 2k RPM

[j_jza80]

I would have thought a GT30 would have similar spool charachteristics to stock Turbos? maybe even slightly better than BPU. Was it DBB?

 

Good luck with your project.

[Wez]

Interesting, aren't TD04s normally used on scoobies and come in three different sizes?

[wojtrek]

td04s are found on many cars basically.

 

my gt30 was DBB, don't think they make them different anyway. it wasn't twinscroll, since when I bought it it wasn't even available in T3 flange with twinscroll.

 

if I went with smaller A/R, like 0.86 or smaller, they'd spool up faster, but smaller A/R means less power at top...

[Krister]

Looks like it's the stock exhaust wheel but it's been clipped for higher flow. I'm interested in seeing the results.

[mwilkinson]

Interested in how this develops. How long do you think it will take you before you have some working figures?

[wojtrek]

Since I had 650cc injectors on the car, to work with my HKS VPC and am currently taking it all out and putting back stock 550cc injectors and MAF it will take some time. If I had a stock car, this would take one day, but I have a lot of work here now, and not that much time on my hands...

I want this working soon very bad, so spending more time on it than I should.

Speedforsale is also using MAF on their 550+ WHP car, I wonder if MAF is all it takes or do I need MAP ECU or the like to get this in the right AFRs.

 

Any of you remember if Stu put something on their car, any piggy back?

[jimojameso]

Subscribed

[Wez]

In my opinion it seems like a whole lot of work for very little gain, thumbs up for trying something new though.

[Zofix]

Stu use MAP ECU on his GT28 SFS hybrids. I'm really considering buying the SFS GT28 turbos if my stockies blows. I just love the sound of a open wastegate, and they unfortunately can't give me that sound:(

[johnny g]

The SFS GT28's sound great in theory, am not 100% convinced, yet. Love the idea though.

[wojtrek]

well, the turbos are in the car, I'm completing all the vacuum hoses, etc - it's a real maze and putting it back together, as Toyota intended, is quite a challenge.

 

before I put them on the car, I measured the exh side of the turbos - it's the same as stock, so apart from a different shape of the wheel, there's no difference.

 

to be honest, I don't think it's a lot of work for little gain - if I had the stock twins in my car it would take me a few hours and the car would be back on the road. It's just the matter of actually seeing for yourself what these can do, as we know, the number they have in the States are usually a lot higher than european numbers. If I can touch 500 it'd be perfect. Remember that this is supposed to be a perfect daily driver

 

if it turns out, that the SFS GT28 mod only barely makes 50HP more over here, than yeah, for the money they charge it is not worth it, but they claim 520-550 at the wheels, so 100-150 more than on stock turbos.

My TD04 based hybrids are a mystery to me, so 80hp over stock (at the crank) would be great, but in reality, running a safe 450-460 all day long, in sequential mode, is still not bad!

 

anyway, don't know if I'll fire it up before Monday though, it;s bank holiday tomorrow here... then the weekend... we'll see. I'll keep you posted.

[sdistc]

Looking forward to your results. Great work so far

[Zofix]

Do anybody in Europe have the SFS GT28 turbos fitted to their car? or is it only US people

[bigbloodyturbo]

Do anybody in Europe have the SFS GT28 turbos fitted to their car? or is it only US people

 

AFAIK there was a guy in the london area that posted in stu's thread about purchasing them. I was dead set on them untill i read the thread again recently and now there seems to be some doubt over what power the jdm efforts can make. When they said they'd given them 360degree bearings and they could now push past 21psi the official statement was that they were for all intensive purposes nearly as good as the usdm gt28's. However now someoen has said they wont break 500. To me that is a big difference to what was being said before. Hopefully the aussies that have been interested in them will post up some results as most of them drive jdm motors.

[johnny g]

Yea - I'm waiting for some indepentant proof outside of the USA

[wojtrek]

I would like to see them on a european car too..

 

My car is EDM, so I was considering the USDM/GT28 combo from S4S. Don't know much about the JDM mod, which probably is what interests you most.

 

But I think I read somewhere that someone in Sweden (IIRC) has the GT28 mod, but I'm not sure.

 

Talking about dyno numbers is pointless when it comes to comparing them with american dyno numbers. They not only measure power at the wheels, which is just wrong (you have different power in different gears, if you use different tyres, the power will be different etc.) but also will tell you, that when you go to a dyno made by one company rather than another it will show more power (Dynojet and Mustang dyno IIRC). What I have noticed is that over here in Europe, people should be happy to get the american wheel horsepower at the crank. So if the GT28 mod is netting 550 wheel power, I would expect no more than 550 at the crank... I wish I knew the numbers for my TD04 hybrids, Swampy says the americans say it's 550 at the wheels, well... Since they are a bit smaller than the GT28's are, and I don't want to use methanol and other crazy fuel and mods, I think that if I could have something just shy of 500 at the crank - that would be great.

[Nic]

I cannot understand why you would want to swap a single GT3076R for a pair of hybrid turbos? A properly setup GT30R should make positive boost just as quick as the stock turbos and be more responsive than to a pair of hybrid turbos. Plus the GT30R should produce more power than any hybrid setup.

 

The limiting factor with any hybrids are the stock turbo housings and the sequential system, they are too restrictive to allow the turbos to flow enough gasses to make anywhere near 500hp.

[wojtrek]

I cannot understand why you would want to swap a single GT3076R for a pair of hybrid turbos? A properly setup GT30R should make positive boost just as quick as the stock turbos and be more responsive than to a pair of hybrid turbos. Plus the GT30R should produce more power than any hybrid setup.

 

The limiting factor with any hybrids are the stock turbo housings and the sequential system, they are too restrictive to allow the turbos to flow enough gasses to make anywhere near 500hp.

 

well, there are few reasons...

 

1. the most power I have seen from a GT30R here, in Poland, is 478HP at the crank, and that's on a car with 272 HKS cams in/exh. even my favorite in this subject, the Amuse supra, didn't have 500HP, and they had some kind of hybrid fo the GT30R, not the off-the-shelf garrett.

 

2. from what I understand, Stu Hagen, on their Speed for Sale test supra, had somewhere near 600 at the wheels with race fuel and many supporting mods. even if the numbers are blown out of proportion, I think 500 should be doable on the stock sequential system. You must understand here, that what I'm trying to get here, is the perfect street supra, for everyday use. I love how the stock car works - I like the torque at low RPMs. Like I said, with the GT30 my car made 0.5 bar at 3000rpm, I had a crappy manifold - true, but the best manifold would maybe make the turbo spool 200rpm lower. One guy here has a GT30R with 0.86 A/R and he has 0.5bar at around 2700-2800 (netting 220ft/lb or 300Nm), which isn't bad for a single, but far from what the first turbo does on a stock supra. I had 220 ft/lb of torque (300Nm) at 2000rpm! from 2400rpm I had full boost of the first turbo (0.7bar), and 0.7 bar from 2500 to 3800rpm equals to 290ft/lb (390Nm) of torque. There's no way a single turbo on a supra will make that kind of torque. And I think, that with these hybrids, when I can safely raise the boost I will be looking at maybe 450-500Nm (330-370ft/lb) below 3000rpm, maybe as low as 2700rpm.

I know, that if you are building a car for drag racing, or just for plain power noone cares about torque at low RPMs, but really, I drive this car every day. I want a fast car on the street, with power everywhere in the RPM scale.

Now, on a 'not-so-fresh' set of stock turbos, only with an exhaust and intake I made 410-420hp, and 560Nm (410ft/lb). I don't want 600hp, Supras always had problems with traction, I want a car with a reliable 500HP at the crank. And here we have another key issue here - reliability...

 

3. Reliability - no modification will come close to the reliability of a stock car - with these hybrids I basically have a turbo system how Toyota intended it to be.

Since I went single I had problems and didn't really like how the car drove, for instance, at part-throttle. I may be fussy, but that's how it was. In vacuum and WOT was great, but say I wanted to overtake, press the pedal half-way and sometimes I experienced boost spikes, lower boost than expected, jirking etc. It was all down to how boost was controlled I think - I had a Tial wastegate, new, I have Apexi AVC-R, I tried runnig with stock MAF, I have HKS VPC, tried different ROMs, different injectors etc. Maybe, finally I would get it right - but I know it would never be as good as a stock Supra, that is a fact. I don't want to have to worry about EGTs, AFRs, etc. I make 15-20k miles every year in this car.

Before I bought these hybrids I thought that a GT30 size turbo would be perfect for what I wanted - I wanted around 500hp, and torque as low as possible. It turned out I had reasonable torque from 3500rpm, which was far from perfect, and also, that 500 is probably not possible (from experience on other supras).

 

I think of my supra as a GT car, and I think/hope these hybrids are a perfect solution.

[Nic]

What ECU were you using with the GT30R? Can you list the full spec?

 

I think you'll be disappointed if you think the hybrid setup is going to make the figures you are expecting, the stock sequential system is just to restrictive. Running anything over 1.2bar on stock or hybrid turbos and all you do is start to generate a lot of heat (which can potentially blow an engine) with no gain in power. It doesn't matter how big the hybrid turbines are, the gasses just cannot flow fast enough through the stock sequential system to make the numbers quoted by these traders.

 

I completely disagree that the stock sequential setup with hybrids will be more reliable than a properly setup single turbo. A single turbo setup is a whole lot simpler, with a lot fewer parts to go wrong compared to the stock sequential setup. The key to a reliable single setup is using quality parts, having it properly built and mapped, if that is done it should be more reliable than a 10+ year old stock sequential setup running rebuilt stock turbos.

 

For the kind of power figures you are wanting I believe a properly setup small single turbo would be the most responsive and you best option. For example I use to run a GT35R with AR .82, in256/ex264 cams, I saw positive boost at around 2100rpm, it would pull hard from then, by 4k rpm making almost 400hp peaking at the 7200rpm rev limiter at around 540hp at 1.3bar. Yes I sacrificed around 300rpm in extra lag but as soon as it was seeing positive boost the power/torque would wipe the floor with any stock based setup.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Nic (see edit history)

[wojtrek]

I used my stock ECU at first. When I put my setup together I started the car to see how it runs, and it turned out, that the car ran great (AFR-wise) on a stack MAF up to around 1.0bar of boost (I made 420hp and 560Nm 410ft/lb at the crank on MAF _ONLY_). The problem was when I wanted higher boost, because the ECU boost map probably didn't match the boost from the GT30 and started to lean out at higher rpms (AFAIR 5500+), so I read around and found out that many people in the USA use the HKS VPC, so I went and bought it (it replaces the MAF). It came with the A chip, since the A chip is for stock twins I sort of had the same problems at higher boost. So I thought OK, let's go with either B or C chip which is for single turbos and 680ccs, installed 650cc injectors - AFRs were better, but the problem was, that when I tuned it to be OK at say 1.2bar, and on that setting checked how the AFRs were at part-throttle and say 0.6bar it was too rich (or lean, don't remember), so the problem was I couldn't have consistent AFRs at all boost levels. So I bought the GCC for HKS (to tune it more), didn't really help. My next step was to ditch the HKS VPC and go with MAP-ECU or similar and if that didn't help buy AEM EMS as last resort... But these hybrids popped up and so I bought them.

 

So to list the full spec.. it's been changing a lot, but basically you get the idea. The problem is that it turns out that what you read on the internet usually doesn't translate to real world or should I say, your car

 

And one other thing, you say you had positive pressure at 2100rpm. Well, positive pressure meaning 0.1bar? I had 0.05bar at 1200rpm, that's also positive pressure but so what. I had 220lb/ft at 3000rpm with 0.5bar - so it was still poor. Only above 3700rpm I had more torque than what the first small turbo made (390Nm / 290/ft/lb at stock boost levels). So in everyday driving you loose around 1500-1800rpm of powerband compared to a small single. People learn all their lives I guess I want to see for myself what can be done with these - from the moment I saw those GT28 hybrids I wanted them - if they turn out to be shit - well, so be it, but I least I had a go these td04 hybrids cost me exactly the money I got for my used GT30 and the Tial wastegate, so I am not risking much.

 

We can discuss the cons and pros of a stock system vs a proper single setup. But I guess that it's more a matter of what you prefer and what I prefer - a different approach

[wojtrek]

UPDATE:

 

the turbos are in the car, and the car is working. Everything's back to stock, apart of course of the bigger turbos.

 

To answer some PMs, I don't know where these came from, ask Swampy422 where he bought them. All I know is what he wrote in the sale post, that they're from the States.

 

Now, back to the car. I have a problem. After reverting back to stock I have a problem with boost. The first turbo barely reaches 0.5bar, usually hits 0.45 (my stock first turbo hit 0.7), and after transition it drops to 0.35, when it should be at 0.8. And I want to point out, that I had a faulty IACV VSV and with it the boost dropped to as low as 0.2bar after transition, which meant that the second turbo wasn't coming online. I have changed the valve and have a solid 0.35bar to redline, so the second turbo is doing something.

 

I have checked the IACV valve and VSV it's all OK and working. After a few rechecks on all the piping I can't see any fault there.

So what I did is put my APEXi AVC-R to control boost after transition and MBC to control the first turbo (the stu hagen mod), I set the MBC at 0.9bar and all I get is 0.5 bar, and after some driving eventually maxed out my AVC-R and all I'm getting is 0.75bar after transition. but it doesn't go stright to 0.75 but gradually and slowly.

Any ideas what can be wrong?

Besides the boost controllers, which I have put on a not so properly working system, so what can be the cause for my low boost?

And to point out - I have spent half night reading threads about low or no boost. As I said, my IACV is OK, was dead but I changed it to a working one.

Do these turbos require something else? a different setup or sth? Are the actuators different and that's why the system can't get the pressures or sth? I have spent 2 days looking for the cause and still nothing...

 

Any ideas much appreciated.

Edited June 10, 2010 by wojtrek (see edit history)

[Wez]

It would be worth checking for boost leaks and double check all the plumbing, the stock sequential system is rather complex.

 

Also worth noting that the stock turbos are smaller and therefore would have spooled quicker

[Ian C]

For what it's worth, the HKS VPC is a hideous old bodge from 15+ years ago, so no wonder your single install behaved poorly at part throttle part boost loads. I've got no probs with mine under any throttle/boost combinations because the E-Manage has the map resolution and capabilities to deal with it (and I've spent a lot of time mapping it).

 

However, having said that, I'm interested to see what you get out of these sequential twin modifications. A bit ironic that your quest for reliability is currently stalled with a nasty sequential problem It sounds to me like the wastegate isn't opening properly on turbo 2.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Ian C (see edit history)