JEM garage in north london

[Robert]

yup that would work also

[SUPRALOOPY]

the bonnet can be repaired but why should you fork out for that.so i say stick at it and they might cave in but if not.........

[Robert]

exactly i shouldnt have to pay out and i'll keep annoying them until they say its their fault

[colsoop]

What does the underside of the bonnet look like. If it was heat there would be signs of it from underneath.

You could e mail these guys They are a mail order fibreglass supplier and seem to know their stuff. They may be able to help you with melting points of fibreglass etc.

Hope it gets sorted soon at the garages expense!

[Robert]

underneath there are no signs of heat affecting anything and thanks for the info i'll contact them and see what they say

[SteveR]

Sorry mate, didn't get chance today - my PM is back and after 2 weeks holiday he needed filling in on *everything*. He's out tomorrow so I'll do it first thing and have a few answers from the techies by the afternoon I'm sure. Apologies!

[Robert]

not a problem steve

[wez_p]

annoying isn't when people mess you about

 

any chance of a reply to my PM please mate?

[Terminator]

I am sorry but this is all bollocks, you are being shafted but the garage knows you cant prove it.

 

 

There is no heat source at that pointing the car, unless you are in the habit of warming your bonnet pins with a blow torch on cold mornings. So how the hell did it get hot. Wait for it they will blame the head lights next. If the car was moving fast the air flow would have cooled it. If it was heat the paint would show signs of heat damage as it is much less durable than fibreglass. IMHO Fibreglass would soften with heat, as would the paint so no cracking would take place. But a moron using brut force could crack it in a second.

 

 

A friend had a car that caught fire in the carb area, the person driving freaked so the fire brigade were called. They opened the bonnet ten minutes later and put it out. The paint on the inside of the bonnet was total fucked the outside was fine. I replaced the carb and damaged wiring and repainted in side and sold the car.

 

 

My son’s car exhaust caused fibreglass damage by excessive heat, but it caused blistering and the paint was charred and lost is shine, but there was no deformation other than the blistering no cracks either.

 

 

IMHO that damage was caused by mechanical force.

[SteveR]

Ok, a few bits of good advice & knowledge so far (I posted extracts of your comments this morning Robert) - stupid fiewall here doens't let me send 'big' attachments (like 20 lines of text) so I'll forward it to my home email and post it from there tonight.

Likewise if anything else gets posted in the meantime/afterwards I'll forward that home and post it here, too. :-)

Some good points raised from the non materials experts too, all good stuff to take to the garage which will hopefully help you get this sorted out. :-)

[SteveR]

ok, here are the responses from my work newsgroups - a few best guessed form people but a very authoritative answer (from Chris - several times)...

 

responses seperated by "---"'s, and in the order they came;

Steve

 

---

 

Ken:

Suggest he tries asking for owners near him on Reliant Scimitar, Lotus or

TVR fora.

 

I'm dubious about the garage owner's explanation, but it really needs

someone that knows about glass bodies to go and have a physical look at the

damage.

---

 

[*NB: This next chap isn't quite right but as this is the case I have kept his comments in so you have for the full story - see Chris' comments on this*]

 

Duncan:

The melting point of Glass is very high, but, the melting point of the resin

system is likely to be far lower - circa 150 - 200degC for a good resin

system.

 

However, as you say, the likely-hood of the bonnet pins reaching 150deg is

not that likely, as long as they aren't mounted directly on anything hot.

 

It is possible that the overall engine bay got very hot during the MOT

emmissions test, which in turn may have caused the bonnet to expand. If it

was still secured at this point, then damage would likely occur at the

fastened postions - i.e. the Bonnet pins which were trying to hold the

bonnet in position whilst it was expanding.

 

This is just a thought, and it is difficult to say without more pictures of

the damage.

...Having said that, IIRC the coefficient of expansion of Glass Fibre is also

very low, so unless the bonnet was burnt on the underside, it shouldn't have

"grown" much.

 

So I guess the damage caused is more likely to be as you suspect - over

zealous handling.

---

 

Edwin:

Just a thought - There is no reason for the bonnet to be shut for the

emissions test as a lead is connected to a plug lead to monitor engine revs

and a sensor is put into the dipstick tube to read the oil temperature.

I know of loads of rally cars that use fibreglass bonnets and they get

seriously hot in the engine bay and I can't recall seeing any problems with

them

---

 

[*This is good stuff...*]

 

Chris:

Having had a Reliant with a fibreglass body and engine bay, never mind just

the bonnet, this all sounds like a load of rubbish to me. First , on the

materials front (and speaking as a chemist with personal experience of

moulding resins etc) the moulding compounds used in GRPs are thermosets -

that is, they do not melt. Heat them enough and they will catch fire, but

they do not melt, they don't even soften (with excessive heat they become

more brittle). The glass fibres may liquefy, but since they are

encapsulated with the thermoset matrix they will not be free to flow

anywhere, even if they are liquid.

 

To quote even more extreme evidence, you can actuially patch exhaust pipes

with fibreglass - this is one of the reocmmended uses of David's Isopon,

iirc, and certainly I have seen this done, and it works very well. So to

blame the damage on heat is complete baloney.

 

The expansion model Duncan suggested is also (with all due respect ;o)) )

wrong - in that it will not happen, the materials simply do not behave like

that. It is true that thermoplastics (eg polypropylene, nylons, ABS etc)

have very high CTEs - typically around 6 times that of common steels, but

GRPs are NOT thermoplastic, they are thermosets, which chemically and

physically are quite different.

 

From the information you gave, this sounds pure and very simple - the person

closing the bonnet did not do it properly, and cracked the GRP matrix. Most

likely, he simply trieed to force the bonnet shut with the posts not

properly aligned with the holes (from your pix, I assume the posts are fixed

on the engine/body, and the bonnet has holes which locate over them, then

the securing pin is located to hold it all shut). I would make a strong

complaint to the garage in question, and demand compensation (bearing in

mind that composite materials are notoriously difficult to repair well, a

new panel would be the most sensible option).

 

FWIW, I've taken to taking photos of all parts of any vehicle (eg had a hire

van last weekend) as it left my possession so that in the event of any

dispute I have a date stamped record of its condition - so if anyone accuses

me of causing damage I can prove I didn't. Same could be useful if you have

to entrust your pride and joy to strangers in the future.

 

---

Rob:

 

While the resin might have expanded much, might some other component that mates with it have expanded producing damage to the resin? Possibly the expansion of overly tight bonnet pins?

 

---

 

Chris:

 

CTEs of metals are of the order of n.10e-5/degree so to expand, say, 1mm to take up the clearance, an alloy pin of ,say, 10mm dia would have to be heated by roughly 5000 degrees... For a finger-tight initial clearance of say 100 microns, this would still need a temperature rise of 50 degrees. If ambient was say 10 degrees, the rise would take you to 60 deg C - far too hot to touch without gloves on, and still a pretty unlikely scenario.

---

 

Robin:

 

GRP shouldn't be that bad. Even if it flexes the paint should flex with the GRP to some extent. Boat manufacturers make engine boxes out of GRP and our boat Is GRP. With the engine ours is plywood laminated with glassfibre but most are just GRP and they sag a bit but not much plus the engine is contained and so the heat given off from on average a 150HP turbo diesel or petrol engine is phenomenal. They wouldn't use it if there was problems.

With Mercedes VITO wings and elise parts I can bend them severely and the paint does not crack before the GRP or plastic. As long as its primered with a good plasticiser it should stick well. It could be poorly made but I still doubt it would be that bad.

 

 

If its not stuck on properly or the heat has got to it yes but I would have thought unless you crack the fibreglass even that would be difficult Ive never managed to crack paint on GRP. With heat if it comes off at all it tends to flake off or go brown and craze you need to look at how its cracked and the type of paint used.

 

---

 

Good luck mate! Steve

[Robert]

cheers steve, thats some good information there from people who know what they are talking about! anyway i was at JEM yesterday and the owner garry said that there would be an independant fibreglass engineer comming out (tomorrow) to make a report on the damage and come to a conclusion on who it might have been caused. Even through my conversation with garry he seemed to still not believe me that heat couldnt have caused the damage to the bonnet. Im not a 100% confident that the 'engineer' isnt just a mate of his from down the pub who knows jack about fibreglass but i will just have to see what the report says. I will also be getting a report from a bodyshop on the damage. Also garry gave me to estimates on fixing the damage (which i didnt ask for), one was to just paint and refit a new bonnet ( that i have to buy) and that came to £310 and the second was to paint and also refit a new bonnet that i have to supply but also paint both wings to match??? anyways that costs £650. He also wanted me to tell him the exact paint code because he didnt know it....

[SteveR]

No worries mate, perhaps not as techhy as I was hoping for but Chris' answers are very authoratitive & knowledgeable (and answer some possible misconceptions) so hopefulyl it's of use.

Also the first advice - consult "Reliant Scimitar, Lotus or TVR" people - this is of course because these cars have at least somee lement of fibreglass construction as standard, so they should know their stuff.

Stick to your guns!

1) Heat = paintwork glazing - that didn't happen! It's *cracked* - that looks like it can only be caused by *physical force*?

2) The crack is inline with what you'd expect from stress being placed along the lines of the bonnet if you were to try and force it when it's on the bonnet pins.

3) No heat in those areas

...etc etc

4) get an independant expert to view it if in doubt, 2nd opinions are great! (Especially if in doubt of the 1st guys motives - after all the garage has brought him in without discussion?) People ask doctors for 2nd opinions so there isn't anythgin wrong with that at all - especialy as we're presumably talking about a lot of money!

5) Carbon fibre might not repair "as new", so get it replaced at the garages's expense if/when they are shown to be at fault - after all that is the condition it was in when you took it there.

 

good luck!

[SteveR]

For what it's worth, another comment from someone at work:

---

From distant memory... having seen a burnt out glass shell; the matting

remains, but the polyester burns off.

I don't believe that cracking could beheat related - the converse is more likely: Epoxy softens with heat, but I'm not sure about polyester. That said, the damage being described is likely to be limited to the gelcoat.

[Robert]

ok i have an update, i really should have known this S*** would happen. I collected my car yesterday after the engineer had come out to examine the damage to my bonnet. The first point i would like to make it that HEAT did NOT cause the damage to my bonnet (JEM experts with a MKIV??) but still the engineer did not agree with me that the damage was the garages fault, instead the engineer's report says:

 

-In relation to the sinkage around the bonnet pins, ths is due to the metal fastener pulling the bonnet panel down against the front panel, therefore, putting this area under constant stree whilst the bonnet is in the down position-

 

 

please tell me how the hell the bonnet pins could have caused that damage when the have been on the bonnet 'in the down position' for 2 months before JEM had my car and i never saw any sinkage!!!!

also i had been driving the car about to and from university and up and down the motorway the bonnet didnt crack or sink.

 

i really am very annoyed at JEM, garry, and his mate the 'independant' engineer. All i know is my car was fine before they had it and when i got it back it was damaged, i dont care who did it whilst working on my car but i shouldnt have to foot the bill for a brand new ab-flug bonnet in metalic pearl blue!!!!!

 

please feel free to add any further comment

[SUPRALOOPY]

[Dragonball]

Let me have a look at it mate and lets see what we can do with this to make it better!

 

There's no way you can fight this one IMHO - as he will just deny it and it's then his word etc - so bring it down (and we can see what might be done)

 

At the end of the day he has lost a good customer and you wont return - simple as that

 

[Robert]

dont worry paul i'll pop down and see you as soon as univeristy finishes next week. its just very annoying that people who proclaim to be experts with supra's just dont take care with other people's cars

[DAVEBOY]

i would go to world wide motors in neport pagnall its not to far they import all jap cars they have a paint shop and they r very good on all japs price is good been looking after me for the last 4 years01908611100

[SteveR]

I guess the only caue of action if you were to persue it would be to get a truely independant expert to assess the damage, but I think you'd be flogging a dead horse and like Paul E says I don't think you'd be able to prove it was the garage that caused the damage - just maybe what caused the damage (not who)

 

Best to just get on with life I guess. Gutted for you though, I'd be fuming!!!!!

[raymanuk]

Dude just read this thread. I hope Paul E can help you out.

 

Good luck fella,

 

:zen:Ray

[imi]

At the end of the day he has lost a good customer and you wont return - simple as that

 

 

 

TRUE and I'll be keeping well away from them as well. not to mention....spreading the word....

[Robert]

cheers guys for the comments, im still annoyed about it but i'll get over it, time to move on and get my car fixed.

[paulfurn]

I wonder if anyone has the domain name "JEMGarageAmatuers.co.uk"?

 

Im sorry to read about this, youve had such a lot of bother recently

 

I would have said get an indepedent engineer out (but that would cost money) and then speak to a solicitor to see where you stand legally (but again, that would cost money) and then going to court to reclaim everything may cost even more. By the time thats over you'd be well out of pocket

 

/shakes head at situation

 

Their repuatition, on here anyway, is now absolute toilet. What a bunch of wankers.

[Green Peace]

I agree..I used to go to Jem when they were part of Jemca only because I trusted John Hague (the Acid Bath murderer) who was the manager.

 

John was a good bloke shame hes gone to Scooby.

 

Also Since Jem have been divorced from Jemca..they seem to have gone right down hill and seem to make their money out of pulling the wool over the eyes of unsuspecting older folk, its become so easy for them (bless) that they seem to forget that some of us have our faculties and do tend to notice when things go tits up rather than tits droopy.

 

Dont let em get away with it..thats what their insurance is there for if it wasn't like that when you took it in..then its their fault regardless..stick to your guns.

 

I asked them once why my bill was so expensive...and they replied...'Coz its an expensive car!' they are too greedy and take the piss...dont bother with em.

 

They will even charge you to open the bonnet for 30 secs..I found..since then I will never use em.

:thumbdown

 

Yes Jake good find, im glad you found that post...i wanted to find that myself to show my own contrast in how customer appreciation can blow hot and cold....I mentioned that i had been there on and off over the last few years...this is how i felt earlier this year...I wasn't happy with a couple of situations..and hopefully Gary will read this constructively!

 

The thread title is 'NEW CANVESS' meaning a fresh start..they have more than proved to me that improvements in their customer relationship and overall qaulity have taken place...and they are as good as they were to me when John Hague was there! so lets hope they can go that few feet further and be all things to all men (and women and furry animals too)

 

Sam wasn't there when I put that post up...I have known Sam for many years he used to work at Jemca in the late Nineties when i had my UK Supra...With him on the 'bridge' I am a bit more confident.

 

I have never dealt with the MD (Gary) before...but hope he will read this!