N/A Dyno Results

[GMan]

Well I finally got a chance to get my N/A on the rollers on Monday. It was a Bosch Dyno at Oettinger Performance (Known for building bad ass VWs and Audis) Here in Germany and This Dyno is known as the Heart Breaker to the German VW/Audi tuning Scene because of it's typical low results. it is however extremely consistent and close to home so I'll be using it from now on.

 

I don't have a baseline from when the car was stock, the best I could find was a guy in Australia who Dyno'd his N/A Manual on a Bosch dyno to the Tune of 126 RWKW 0r 169 RWHP.

Mods to the car are

HKS super suction kit/ with Injen IS Short ram intake

OBX/R Headers and full 90mm Exhaust (double decat)

Nology Hotwires Ignition wires w NGK BKR5IEX11 Iridium spark plugs,

Dizzy cap and rotor replaced with OEM toyota items about 5600 kms ago

Fuel is Esso Super Plus 98ron (93 AKI)

 

 

 

The Guys at Oettinger were completely thrown at having to dyno an Automatic car, almost all cars in Germany are manuals, and they wanted to use 14% as a correction factor! That's brand new FWD manual territory!

Anyways to avoid the whole debate of drive line losses I asked for wheel figures only. They also Scwed up and only have my torque curve for the first run and not the last:blink:

 

 

Result

134 RWKW (179 RWHP) and 206 NM (152 Ft/lbs) W/Silencer

135 RWKW (181 RWHP) and 221 NM (163 Ft/lbs) W/O Silencer

 

While the number seems low it is 9kw (12 RWHP) more than a stock MANUAL Supra on a similar Dyno.

 

The Blue line was my first pull with an apexi active tail silencer installed, the red was without putting paid to misinformation out there about N/As needing back pressure to make power.

Unfortunately the had no DET cans available so I didn't get to start adding timing safely with the good fuel in it, Which has gained good results on N/A Cars I have helped tune in the past (Helped a 3.2ltr BMW gain 24hp by switiching from regular to super plus and adding 6 degrees of timing)

I'll be buying a set soon and bringing them with me next time!

 

So now the part that causes all of the discussions Engine Power

Assuming that the supra in Australia was making full factory hp at the crank (probably not) It would mean a drive line loss of 25% which is Very high for a RWD manual car About what you would expect from a manual AWD Car or a good Automatic actually. My experience with torque converter automatic cars is usually 25-30% Drivel line loss on relatively new cars. 18-20% on RWD manuals

 

Taking the above calculations (Numbers are rounded up at >.6)

25%)135 rwkw/.75= 180 fwkw/.746= 241 fwhp or +16 Hp

30%)135 rwkw/.70= 193 fwkw/.746= 259 fwhp or +34 Hp

 

Not bad for less than $2000 USD Investment

Once I get a piggy back to trim the fuel a bit at the top end and some det cans to safely set the timing I think 280 fwhp (196 rwhp or 146 rwkw) Is easily reachable

Edited March 17, 2010 by GMan (see edit history)

[GMan]

Turbo Guys Please don't hate on this thread

we know all of the arguments.

I am staying NA for insurance purposes and as this is my daily driver atm

Now that I have sold my Skyline I will be looking for a TT when I know wheather My job will remain in Europe or go back to the states later this year.

You supra guys Have converted me!

[dr_jekyll]

dont worry about the big hp turbo guys , there are pleanty of na owners on the forum that will take interest in this

[PaulD76]

GMan - interesting read and thanks for posting these results (although most of it is above my knowledge level).

 

I brought an NA 5 years ago and only now am I starting to wish it had a bit more power. I could afford to buy a TT right now but I cant justify the cost as I am perfectly happy with my car, just id like more BHP!.

 

280BHP sounds amazing for an NA.. I dread to think what my 96 un modded NA would be

 

PS do you really think you can get that much increase in HP from using better fuel? or did i misread or understand that part.. seems to good to be true..

[RobSheffield]

Stock is 220hp, not overly sure what that is at the wheels. Guess it depends what transmission losses are used.

 

Id say 280bhp from an NA without massive investment is dreamland though.

 

Fair play on this result, all good

[w41k3r]

yeah sounds fine i dont see why you couldn`t make that improvement well done

[Shane]

Very interesting re your power output, but "almost all cars in Germany are manuals,"[sHOCK][/sHOCK]

 

Really? Isn't Germany famous for Porsches, BMWs, Audis and Mercs and I would have thought a lot of them would have been Auto.

[Guest Suprafly]

I used to have an n/a years ago, I'd say 200whp is not impossible with bolt on mods including headers, exhaust with decat, panel filter (saves heat saturation), plenum spacer, decent plugs etc.

 

280bhp is dreamland unless you supercharge it or go n/a-t

[Guest Suprafly]

Oh and also it'll be extremely loud!

[GMan]

Thanks for the comments guys

 

I don't think 280 Flywheel (200 wheel) horsepower is that far off really, I'm already at 181rwhp so I'm only 19 rwhp away and you can see the guy lifted a bit early on the last run! I know because I didn't hear it hit the rev limiter!

so My plans to make up the remaining 19 whp?

Basic Bolt on's that I have on it right now are basically stage 1

I just bought a stock airbox from a member on here that I will be fitting to the front of the Injen short ram intake to give it a cold air source, with a K&N panel filter

stage 2 a bit more than basic bolt-on's but nothing too extreme or expensive

I'm looking to see what larger throttle bodies will fit the N/A manifold, thinking of something along 80 mm, Talking to some Honda guys (the non ricer type I assure you) I found most can get between 5-8 hp from going to 80mm TB vs their stock 60mm so it's worth a shot.

Does anyone know any toyotas that use a larger TB?

 

My AF ratios were in the high 10's at above 6000 rpm good for a turbo car to aid in cooling and preventing det but just wasting fuel and killing power on an N/A, I am on the lookout for an Apexi Safc II (I like them more than the neo due to the knock sensor reading)My experience tells me I can make about 10 more hp from leaning out the AFRs from 10.8 to 12-1, might even go to 12.5 if the EGT's and knock ratings low enough. This has to be done with caution, I have an AEM Ugeo wideband installed and will be installing an EGT gauge soon (probably tap the sensor into the #6 runner right near the head for a highly accurate reading of what is normally the hottest cylinder)

 

Finally as I said above, I have made huge gains on N/A cars by increasing base timing when using premium fuelas most manufactures set base timing quite conservatively on Distributor ignition cars since they can't really pull alot of timing if some Numpty puts in low grade petrol like most modern coil on plug cars (IE 2jzgte)can when they detect knock

This has the major side effect of increasing fuel economy and reducing EGT's

Again this must be done with extreme caution or you can quickly destroy your motor. I will have a new set of det cans and a digital timing gun(essential) delivered shortly from the states. past results have shown 20+hp from this.

After stage 2 I hope to be just over 280 hp (flywheel) or around 205+ rwhp

 

Most of this stuff either costs me nothing but time (ignition timing) or will transfer over in case I go na-tt

In fact the only Pieces that wont work are the header and the spark plug wires!

 

Eventually I will go to stage 3 (wild stuff, I will elaborate later) once I buy a TT as a second car. Just to see if it can be done and keep the NA as a daily driver

Edited March 17, 2010 by GMan (see edit history)

[GMan]

Very interesting re your power output, but "almost all cars in Germany are manuals,"[sHOCK][/sHOCK]

 

Really? Isn't Germany famous for Porsches, BMWs, Audis and Mercs and I would have thought a lot of them would have been Auto.

 

Most cars sold in Germany are Manuals, Mercs are the largest segment of automatics but the vast Majority of Beemers, Audis, Vdubs and Porkers are good ol 3 pedal manuals. Only recently with the Germans leading the charge on Dual clutch transmissions is the trend changing but with the exception of VW it hasn't hot the realm of affordability yet. Also most are so new that they are still under warranty so off limits to tuning.

[GMan]

Oh and also it'll be extremely loud!

 

You should have heard it on the dyno without the silencer mate,

People were running over from all over to see what was rocking the house, tried to shoot a vid with my cell Phone but it was just a garbled mess.

The sound of a fully uncorked N/A is impressive and oppressive

hence why I keep the APEXi ATS In almost permanently.

[Homer]

135kw = 181bhp at the wheels.

 

auto = 20% loss (not sure where you got 30% from!!!)

 

Flywheel = rwhp/0.80 = 226.5 flywheel bhp

 

BTW, I'm an NA owner, so meet your conditions to view/reply to this thread

[GMan]

135kw = 181bhp at the wheels.

 

auto = 20% loss (not sure where you got 30% from!!!)

 

Flywheel = rwhp/0.80 = 226.5 flywheel bhp

 

quite possibly

Then again I have seen manuals lose more than 20%

and short of an engine dyno (not going to Happen) can't be verified. it's all guesswork really, that's why I insisted on RWHP only numbers

 

To all NA owners, If someone is willing to Dyno their TOTALLY STOCK n/a Auto I will split the cost with you I swear,

I'd do it myself but can't really be justify the work it would take to return the car to stock.

 

My goal is still 200 RWHP (19rwhp away) which is what really matters, whatever the engine is making is irrelevant really

BTW, I'm an NA owner, so meet your conditions to view/reply to this thread

Homer your input is very welcome and valid

I just wanted to avoid the whole "it's not worth tuning an NA" argument that happened on my last thread

Edited March 17, 2010 by GMan (see edit history)

[Homer]

It'd be nice to see someone finally acheive results with the NA, anyone that has tried it in the past has either ended up full of shite, or never provides any proof of the figures.

 

You mentioned potential timing changes in the first post, what piggyback are you using to acheive this at the moment? How is it possible with the dizzy still in place?

 

Thottle bodies would be a major step forward as would moving to proper electronic ignition.

[Kirk]

Watch this space

[Homer]

To all NA owners, If someone is willing to Dyno their TOTALLY STOCK n/a Auto I will split the cost with you I swear

 

Plenty have done it here, my NA is 100% stock too (engine, drivetrain & wheel/tyre wise), right down to the cat back. What are you after, dyno charts?

[David P]

My N/A project is nearly completed too, just the tappets to re-shim now that the weather has warmed up enough for my fingers to manipulate a micrometer, and the oil coolers and Suprastick to fit then on the rollers it goes.

Edited March 17, 2010 by David P (see edit history)

[GMan]

It'd be nice to see someone finally acheive results with the NA, anyone that has tried it in the past has either ended up full of shite, or never provides any proof of the figures.

 

You mentioned potential timing changes in the first post, what piggyback are you using to acheive this at the moment? How is it possible with the dizzy still in place?

 

Thottle bodies would be a major step forward as would moving to proper electronic ignition.

 

Honestly if it were not for all the negativity I got when I posted my last thread I probably would never have contnued the N/A route, now that i sold my skyline a tt lump is very appealing, and I have no illusions about taking on a stock tt even. I've just noticed that all of the NA guys think that you can bolt on a few parts and make big numbers and get discouraged when it doesn't happen. I can't believe i haven't found one post on ignition timing! my dad was doing this in the 60's

 

With the Dizzy I am adjusting base timing, using the 3/2 method.

+ 3 degrees and dyno with det cans,all the way to redline. repeat until you hear det anywhere in the range (especially 4-6k rpm) then back off 2 degrees for a safety margin.

Then road test at high load (still using det cans) and see if you pick any up.

Of course you also stop if the engine idle becomes too unstable.

I found BMW 3.2 I-6 engines Idle quite well at up to 20 deg BTDC these engines are under square with a relatively long stroke to make advancing base timing difficult.

RB25's on skyline which are very over square with a very short stroke (71.2mm) will idle at 25-30 deg btdc

 

I'm guessing the square (86x86) 2jzge will idle at up to 22 deg btdc, I'm hoping to get 6-7 degrees of advancement before that dreaded midrange det rears it's head. should be good for whole lot of top end power

Edited March 17, 2010 by GMan (see edit history)

[David P]

The OEM spec is 8 to 12, so is that 18 to 19 BTDC you are proposing?

[GMan]

I want to stay away from ITB's and stand alone ecu's on this build, once you are at that extreme you should have just gone turbo in the first place, I also want to keep the cost down or again it makes no sense, Finally after checking with the insurance company as long as I don't add nitrous or turbocharging, I don't have to declare the modification as long as it passes safety inspection

 

The most I am willing to consider is an intake manifold change, I have seen some TT style for the GE with built in velocity stacks, if i can find one cheapish I'll get it , but I'd rather leave this area as "stock looking" as possible

[Homer]

Honestly if it were not for all the negativity I got when I posted my last thread I probably would never have contnued the N/A route, now that i sold my skyline a tt lump is very appealing, and I have no illusions about taking on a stock tt even. I've just noticed that all of the NA guys think that you can bolt on a few parts and make big numbers and get discouraged when it doesn't happen. I can't believe i haven't found one post on ignition timing! my dad was doing this in the 60's

 

There's a few reasons why folks in the UK don't tend to bother with the NA route, primarily is a TT swap is easy to do and can get a good 400bhp at the fly for a few grand. Also many (probably most) are not very technically aware or understand how to modify an NA engine so go for the simpler, bigger power, 'drop in' option. I'm one of those

 

Anyway, please keep us posted how you progress with the mods, will be interesting reading, even regardless of results.

[GMan]

The OEM spec is 8 to 12, so is that 18 to 19 BTDC you are proposing?

 

that is basically correct;)

should be 14 to 17,

 

I have to find my old engineering textbook and calculate flame front speed vs max pressure point vs piston speed in an 86mm stroke engine which would allow me calculate precisely what my ideal ignition point would be at 6800 rpm,

but should roughly be 22 or 28 deg btdc on 95 ron and about 30 with 98

unfortunately with the dizzy i am limited by the built in mid range timing advance, wich will problably cuse det when it jumps to 44 deg in the mid range at light load

Edited March 17, 2010 by GMan (see edit history)

[GMan]

There's a few reasons why folks in the UK don't tend to bother with the NA route, primarily is a TT swap is easy to do and can get a good 400bhp at the fly for a few grand. Also many (probably most) are not very technically aware or understand how to modify an NA engine so go for the simpler, bigger power, 'drop in' option. I'm one of those

 

Anyway, please keep us posted how you progress with the mods, will be interesting reading, even regardless of results.

 

it is very tempting i agree, but I am on a mission now. I will keep everyone posted especially if I fail

still only 19bhp to go!