Baby killer back in jail

[MARTIN R]

Great post Ray..

[danhicks22]

Quotes and stuff

 

I think you may have taken my posts out of context slightly.

 

I wasn't saying the line between right and wrong is blurred for what they did, they were clearly f***ed in the head.

 

I was also not speaking of this case alone. Talk was of a universal policy affecting all crimes of this and similar nature. This is an open and close case of guilt, others may not be and any precendent set may eventually lead to problems and mistakes.

 

I was merely putting across that I couldn't do to them what they did to Jamie. That, to me, isn't justice - I would feel no better than them. Having said that, I also make no claim to know what my solution of justice would be and hold nothing against anyone who thinks differently from me.

 

I respect, and in a way admire, the conviction of the people that have posted offering the same view as you. Mine is more a position of floundering on the fence contemplating the philosophy of right and wrong, which is why, as I said before, I wouldn't want to be in a position to have to make any sort of decision about this stuff.

 

Yes, what they did was horrific and unforgivable, but my personal view is that I'd take no satisfaction from seeing them tortured.

[Chiefgroover]

There are fathers who cant get to see their kids, or have very limited access, due to their ex partner/wife being spiteful, yet these two can commit a heartless murder of someone elses kid and walk out of jail 8 years later, the law in this country is a joke.

[The Raven]

Wheres charlie bronson when hes needed.

[CraigGilchrist]

...we must sometimes take a step back from the keyboard and take a deep breath before posting!

 

Ramondo

 

I completely agree with this statement. That's why people like myself and danhicks are using the terms "subjective", and "objectively". The people on here saying "If it were my daughter/son..."; this is not objective thinking, it is reactionary, and emotionally biased.

 

While my phrasing was poor, my argument is a considered one:

- I think the death penalty is barbaric.

- Volunteering to be an executioner moreso.

- Many people have commited very serious crimes and been rehabilitated through the justice system, and at 10 years old they deserve the opportunity for rehabilitation.

 

As for them being given jobs, new identities, etc. If it wasn't for the threat of vigilante justice - from people who (incorrectly) feel they are more qualified to determine whether someone is rehabilitated, or what level of physical punishment befits their crime - there would be no need to offer such protection.

 

If you want to see that kind of justice, go to Cambodia, Somalia, China and see how much "better" their society is for it...

[dr_jekyll]

i just think 10 years old or not they should have been drip dryed

[The Raven]

I completely agree with this statement. That's why people like myself and danhicks are using the terms "subjective", and "objectively". The people on here saying "If it were my daughter/son..."; this is not objective thinking, it is reactionary, and emotionally biased.

 

While my phrasing was poor, my argument is a considered one:

- I think the death penalty is barbaric.

- Volunteering to be an executioner moreso.

- Many people have commited very serious crimes and been rehabilitated through the justice system, and at 10 years old they deserve the opportunity for rehabilitation.

 

As for them being given jobs, new identities, etc. If it wasn't for the threat of vigilante justice - from people who (incorrectly) feel they are more qualified to determine whether someone is rehabilitated, or what level of physical punishment befits their crime - there would be no need to offer such protection.

 

If you want to see that kind of justice, go to Cambodia, Somalia, China and see how much "better" their society is for it...

 

 

So your saying 8 years for what they planned, carryed out then tried to hide is ok? Just because a judge told you that its ok?

 

Whats your take on fred west? The moors murderers? Or is it once again a case of......BUT THEY WHERE 10? if it is then at what age do you think they should have been classed and cold blooded killers?

[danhicks22]

So your saying 8 years for what they planned, carryed out then tried to hide is ok? Just because a judge told you that its ok?

 

Whats your take on fred west? The moors murderers? Or is it once again a case of......BUT THEY WHERE 10? if it is then at what age do you think they should have been classed and cold blooded killers?

 

You're missing the point - Craig never said anything about age and wasn't debating the 8 year served sentence.

 

I think the point he's making is that killing is wrong, whatever the person's age and history.

[CraigGilchrist]

So your saying 8 years for what they planned, carryed out then tried to hide is ok? Just because a judge told you that its ok?

 

Whats your take on fred west? The moors murderers? Or is it once again a case of......BUT THEY WHERE 10? if it is then at what age do you think they should have been classed and cold blooded killers?

 

From my earlier post: "I'd be pretty pissed that they only served 8 years though.". So, no, I'm not saying 8 years is ok (explicitly the opposite).

 

My point is that I'm opposed to the death penalty (and vigilante lynch mobs).

 

I also don't think you can compare serial killers with an isolated murder, no matter how brutal the case. It's easy to take the side that serial killers such as Fred West are somewhat beyond rehabilitation, and in their case I feel that life in prison is a suitable punishment - because at that point it becomes about punishment, rather than rehabilitation.

[safcdixon]

do you realy think that murderers,rapists,peadophiles can be rehabillitated,if you think so then i think your wrong! death penelty works well enough in the usa, asia and africa your dna is produced when you are made, that cant be changed in my opinion

[The Raven]

From my earlier post: "I'd be pretty pissed that they only served 8 years though.". So, no, I'm not saying 8 years is ok (explicitly the opposite).

 

My point is that I'm opposed to the death penalty (and vigilante lynch mobs).

 

I also don't think you can compare serial killers with an isolated murder, no matter how brutal the case. It's easy to take the side that serial killers such as Fred West are somewhat beyond rehabilitation, and in their case I feel that life in prison is a suitable punishment - because at that point it becomes about punishment, rather than rehabilitation.

 

My bad i didnt read your other post.

 

I while i agree these kids were not serial killers you can look at it another way. Maybe its only the fact they where caught that another life was not lost.

[Soop Dogg]

I believe that the primary purpose of prison is for rehabilitation of offenders.

 

Not always.

 

In cases such as this I would say the primary purpose of prison is fo rthe protection of the public. Same goes for any violent murderer and for the many mentally ill people who have killed because of their illness.

 

There have been many cases (some in the last couple of years) where a mentally unstable person has been released from a secure unit, only to have killed again with days of their release.

 

Personally, I think if there's any doubt whatsoever as to their fitness for living free within the community, they should continue to be locked up. I'd rather hear of killers dying in prison than of innocent people being stabbed to death when they're walking their kids in the park.

 

Protecting the innocent should be the primary purpose of prison. Whether the offender can be rehabilitated is a secondary consideration IMHO.

[MisterSheen]

Many people have commited very serious crimes and been rehabilitated through the justice system, and at 10 years old they deserve the opportunity for rehabilitation.

 

I'm sure Jamie's parents would have been reassured by their taxpayer's rehab

 

Ray - great posts m8tey

[Lbm]

do you realy think that murderers,rapists,peadophiles can be rehabillitated,if you think so then i think your wrong! death penelty works well enough in the usa, asia and africa your dna is produced when you are made, that cant be changed in my opinion

 

No, the death penalty in the USA does not work at all well - in terms of deterrent.

 

In terms of revenge/punishment/freeing up cells - then yes.

[safcdixon]

No, the death penalty in the USA does not work at all well - in terms of deterrent.

 

In terms of revenge/punishment/freeing up cells - then yes.

 

would that mean we pay less tax

[SUPRALOOPY]

That's right. The 10 year old kids who committed this crime should have been executed immediately and fed to the pigs. That's what they would do in Iran or Pakistan. We should adopt the policies of those countries, they know what they're doing alright.

 

So whats your grand plan? They showed they planned it even tried to snatch another baby days before. They hit him in the head with rocks, smeared paint in his eyes and stuck batterys in his mouth before killing him with a iron bar. When they where done they dumped the body on the tracks to make it like he was run over by a train.

 

Thats murder planned murder. 10 or not.

 

So what if they where 13? or 15?

 

Go on then, what should society/justice system have done with them?? If you have a better idea I'm all ears.......(waits with baited breath)

[hogmaw]

do you realy think that murderers,rapists,peadophiles can be rehabillitated,if you think so then i think your wrong! death penelty works well enough in the usa, asia and africa your dna is produced when you are made, that cant be changed in my opinion

 

Those who can't write using proper English should be executed.

 

In my opinion.

[hogmaw]

Go on then, what should society/justice system have done with them?? If you have a better idea I'm all ears.......(waits with baited breath)

 

Your idea of 'execution' is nothing more than instilling even more violence (ie that of retribution and vengence) into our society, and what's worse is that it would be sanctioned by our very own government. Utterly abhorrent, uncivilised, simplistic and a step back to the dark ages.

 

We as a society are much better than that.

 

In this day and age we should be able to deal with any offender, regardless of their crime, with level headedness, and without resort to barbarity. There are means of punishment and rehab that have been developed over hundreds of years to get to where we are today and the result is a humane, free and just society which, believe it or not, is the envy of many other countries. Do you really think it is that bad in the UK? I'll bet you haven't travelled far, and a week in Ibiza doesn't count.

 

You're a sadist who be "first in line to sign up for the job" of executioner.

 

You also talk about our 'rapidly decaying planet'. What planet are you on?

[Homer]

Good post Hogmaw (#68)

[The Raven]

Your idea of 'execution' is nothing more than instilling even more violence (ie that of retribution and vengence) into our society, and what's worse is that it would be sanctioned by our very own government.. Utterly abhorrent, uncivilised, simplistic and a step back to the dark ages

 

We as a society are much better than that.

 

In this day and age we should be able to deal with any offender, regardless of their crime, with level headedness, and without resort to barbarity. There are means of punishment and rehab that have been developed over hundreds of years to get to where we are today and the result is a humane, free and just society which, believe it or not, is the envy of many other countries. Do you really think it is that bad in the UK? I'll bet you haven't travelled far, and a week in Ibiza doesn't count.

 

You're a sadist who be "first in line to sign up for the job" of executioner.

 

You also talk about our 'rapidly decaying planet'. What planet are you on?

 

 

I think the amount of times people have been let free only to kill and rape weeks later has made peoples minds up.

 

Rehab does not work on those who are sick in the head. The likes of these kids, huntly, moors murders, fred and rose west, tobein.

 

Human rights came into this along time ago. IMO you kill someone you lose all human rights you ever had. You cant free these people its like claiming you can tame a dog thats ripped someones face off.

 

What happens? the dog is put down. Im not saying every one that murders needs hanging. Im saying that in extreme cases that it should be an option.

 

If you think it is Utterly abhorrent, uncivilised, simplistic and a step back to the dark ages then so be it. Im sure you would love one of these two living next you and your family. End of the day the crimes they commited where Utterly abhorrent, uncivilised, simplistic and a step back to the dark ages. So the punishment should be the same.

[Porky1978]

I think the amount of times people have been let free only to kill and rape weeks later has made peoples minds up.

 

Rehab does not work on those who are sick in the head. The likes of these kids, huntly, moors murders, fred and rose west, tobein.

 

Human rights came into this along time ago. IMO you kill someone you lose all human rights you ever had. You cant free these people its like claiming you can tame a dog thats ripped someones face off.

 

What happens? the dog is put down. Im not saying every one that murders needs hanging. Im saying that in extreme cases that it should be an option.

 

If you think it is Utterly abhorrent, uncivilised, simplistic and a step back to the dark ages then so be it. Im sure you would love one of these two living next you and your family. End of the day the crimes they commited where Utterly abhorrent, uncivilised, simplistic and a step back to the dark ages. So the punishment should be the same.

 

My sentiments exactly mate. How can we be the envy of other countries when all we see are the news reports telling us of yet another failing in the system that has allowed a person who either has been rehabliltated, or should have been, that has been released early and killed within days of release???

 

Show me any country that would want that kind of system!!

 

And actually i have travelled about a bit. Not as much as i would like, granted, but to pre judge what i do and do not know about other countries and the punishments they give is very flawed. In this day and age, with the technology we have today (internet, news reports, etc.....) it is not hard to see what goes on in other countries is it??

[MaveriK]

From my earlier post: "I'd be pretty pissed that they only served 8 years though.". So, no, I'm not saying 8 years is ok (explicitly the opposite).

 

My point is that I'm opposed to the death penalty (and vigilante lynch mobs).

 

I also don't think you can compare serial killers with an isolated murder, no matter how brutal the case. It's easy to take the side that serial killers such as Fred West are somewhat beyond rehabilitation, and in their case I feel that life in prison is a suitable punishment - because at that point it becomes about punishment, rather than rehabilitation.

 

How do you know it WAS going to be an isolated murder if indeed murder is a strong enough term to use. The very fact that they tried to abduct someone prior to Jamie shows that they where intent on abusing and killing a small child. They planned it all out and then tried to cover it up. I will wager all that i own that the sick little b*stards would have done it again if they had not got caught.

 

The violations that happened that day are truely shocking and go far beyond a simple murder.

 

I pity our society when the detterent of detention is our strongest punishment and yet it seems to be failing. Overfull prisons and multiple repeat offenders are proof of this

[Chris Wilson]

I don't want to see an attempt at rehabilitation, correction or appraisal, with vermin like them I want the peace of mind they are gone. For good. I would also want to see their parents stopped from breeding, to allay fears their genes may spawn more misfits. Prison, to me, is a means of taking the malodorous off the streets. IF rehab is possible (and in many cases I think it a leftie pipe dream) then great, but in the main I see it as knowing where and what someone of dangerous habits is, and is doing. For crimes of such unrivalled atrocity as the Bulger slaughter and other similar sick cases I don't want my taxes paying for anything more than euthanasia.

[Porky1978]

I don't want to see an attempt at rehabilitation, correction or appraisal, with vermin like them I want the peace of mind they are gone. For good. I would also want to see their parents stopped from breeding, to allay fears their genes may spawn more misfits. Prison, to me, is a means of taking the malodorous off the streets. IF rehab is possible (and in many cases I think it a leftie pipe dream) then great, but in the main I see it as knowing where and what someone of dangerous habits is, and is doing. For crimes of such unrivalled atrocity as the Bulger slaughter and other similar sick cases I don't want my taxes paying for anything more than euthanasia.

 

:clap:

 

Would you commit murder (or worse like the Bulger case) knowing that if you were found guilty that you would get the death penalty???

 

I know i wouldn't.

Vermin breeds vermin in my opinion.

I'm with Darwin on this: If two idiots mate, then the offspring is likely to be an idiot as well. So I am with you Chris when you say that the parents of such animals should be stopped from breeding.

 

Excellent post my friend. Nice to see i am not on my own.

[CJ]

...I'm with Darwin on this: If two idiots mate, then the offspring is likely to be an idiot as well....

 

Any chance you can point me in the direction of that quotation by Darwin?