NA-T making things simple?

[Homer]

hehe this thread is getting very hot

 

That's always the issue with NA-T threads. You have half the folks that complain that it's "always slated on here", but have no or very little understanding of the subject being discussed. The other half have a pretty decent knowledge of the subject but get shouted down by the afformentioned folks as bullying or not thinking 'outside the box'. It's a been a no-win situation for years.

 

I'm struggling to find a 'build' thread for either (Bromy doesn't seem to have posted a great deal), GazzaGsi has loads of threads but it looks like his was done by turbofit? I found this but it's hardly a detailed post.

 

Bromy never had a build thread, it was way before those things ever started here. Cost a pretty penny to do though, £8k or more IIRC.

 

Gazza did have several threads but they have all been pruned. He had a *lot* of issue with it in the first year or two and again cost a fortune to get it running properly. He did get some very good results in the end, but last time I spoke to him it again cost a small fortune (well over £8k).

[Miguel]

Sorry, missed a smilie on the reply, it was tongue in cheek

 

I know bud

[AlexM]

That's always the issue with NA-T threads. You have half the folks that complain that it's "always slated on here", but have no or very little understanding of the subject being discussed. The other half have a pretty decent knowledge of the subject but get shouted down by the afformentioned folks as bullying or not thinking 'outside the box'. It's a been a no-win situation for years.

 

It may not be the correct term for it, but that's the sort of thing I meant by 'forum politics'. Everyone wants their say, whether they have a clue or not, and usually to the detriment of everyone around them (sort of like our government).

 

Bromy never had a build thread, it was way before those things ever started here. Cost a pretty penny to do though, £8k or more IIRC.

 

Gazza did have several threads but they have all been pruned. He had a *lot* of issue with it in the first year or two and again cost a fortune to get it running properly. He did get some very good results in the end, but last time I spoke to him it again cost a small fortune (well over £8k).

 

Do you know what results Bromy had out of his setup? £8k wouldn't be that much if it was reliable and put out decent power (by decent, I mean something in the region of 450-500 at the fly).

 

It sounds like both of those setups are quite old, you'd hope things have moved on for the better since then seeing as it's relatively common in the US, but I'm not sure what difficulties there would be adjusting a wrong hand drive setup to a right hand drive one. Is NA-T ever done over in Japan?

[Scooter]

I'm struggling to find a 'build' thread for either (Bromy doesn't seem to have posted a great deal), GazzaGsi has loads of threads but it looks like his was done by turbofit? I found this but it's hardly a detailed post.

 

true but it's the best on offer it's a shame that we've never had a welder/fabricator want to do this as if you restrict yourself to moddest power goals then IMO it is acheivable for minimal outlay.

 

Buy a good NA engine and stick it on a stand....

Buy a 2nd hand TT intercooler and install on the current NA...

Metal plate and tube pieces for log type manifold construction on the NA engine off the car

Ali tubes for turbo/IC pipework, test fitted on the car that now has the IC

Turbo......why is a Mkiii turbo not a possibility? If it isn't another current/old cars turbo that has the required flow etc characteristics could i'm sure be identified.

Further pipes for turbo to second cat downpipe.

Test bolt up of all head to second cat metalwork.

Remove and tap sump, or acquire a tt one and fit oil supply/drain lines.

Perform engine swap!

 

ok alot of work but if you can weld and swap an engine then the physical parts are pretty cheap.

 

 

I would honestly forget a NA-T if you are reliant on a garage to do most things.

[Homer]

Do you know what results Bromy had out of his setup? £8k wouldn't be that much if it was reliable and put out decent power (by decent, I mean something in the region of 450-500 at the fly).

 

It sounds like both of those setups are quite old, you'd hope things have moved on for the better since then seeing as it's relatively common in the US, but I'm not sure what difficulties there would be adjusting a wrong hand drive setup to a right hand drive one. Is NA-T ever done over in Japan?

 

Bromy was around the 500bhp mark IIRC.

 

Things have not really moved on in the NA-T world as the previously hinted at issues don't change (the GE design is the same as it always was). Turbo and electronics technology has moved on, for sure, but you need to pay for those and only the electronics can really help address one of the two key fundamental problems. Those electronics are not cheap though!

 

Don't draw the US into this discussion, it will only polute. They get 500rwhp on stock turbos, don't you know?

[AlexM]

Don't draw the US into this discussion, it will only polute. They get 500rwhp on stock turbos, don't you know?

 

Well that'd make another interesting comparsion...

[Scooter]

Bromy never had a build thread, it was way before those things ever started here. Cost a pretty penny to do though, £8k or more IIRC.

 

Gazza did have several threads but they have all been pruned. He had a *lot* of issue with it in the first year or two and again cost a fortune to get it running properly. He did get some very good results in the end, but last time I spoke to him it again cost a small fortune (well over £8k).

 

I would say though that these both admitted that the quest for more power is what had 'cost' them financially, if they could have stuck with an approx 300bhp stock injector setup then it wouldn't have cost them so dear, but there in lies the key problem...........it's unlikely you'll want to stop!

[Homer]

I would say though that these both admitted that the quest for more power is what had 'cost' them financially, if they could have stuck with an approx 300bhp stock injector setup then it wouldn't have cost them so dear, but there in lies the key problem...........it's unlikely you'll want to stop!

 

Absolutely!

[kill1308]

Hehe I think I'll stay out of this thread..... I don't have any good arguments either way, was mainly just saying what I thought the guy was trying to do.

[Scooter]

Bromy

 

There are quite a few kits out there now, mine was one of the first to be done over here so I went with the well proven Boostlogic stage 1 kit from the US, this will allow you to run a safe amount of boost on the standard headgasket, think it is around 5.5 psi alot of people say 7psi is the max on standard gasket. It was also recommended to me to have some larger injectors for two reasons

1) the standard injectors would be right on their limit

2) for future upgrade purposes

 

After all that was fitted it made 283bhp @0.35bar at the wheels which is possibly around 340 flywheel bhp.

 

The next step is where it starts getting expensive, to run higher boost it is a headgasket change or lower compression pistons, a decent management system, boost controller, uprated clutch.

 

GazzaGSI

 

When it was running mid 13's it was fine, I was around 400bhp and it was hassle free. It was after this where problem started to arise. I think in the last 5 months of ownership i'd spent about another 5-6k on it. Plus then theres general maintenance increase like oil changes/fluids/brakes etc.

[AlexM]

I would say though that these both admitted that the quest for more power is what had 'cost' them financially, if they could have stuck with an approx 300bhp stock injector setup then it wouldn't have cost them so dear, but there in lies the key problem...........it's unlikely you'll want to stop!

 

Which takes it back to the original question really. Could a 300bhp NA-T setup be done in a way that was financially viable? Forgetting for a moment that most of us like to go for more (there might be someone out there who has some self control. ).

 

Bromy's post looks interesting (nice find Scooter), it got expensive after 340bhp. I wonder what the cost actually was? Bromy and Gazza both seem to be still active, maybe we could drag them in here!

 

Personally I know I wouldn't stick to 300. I went NA-TT and was left disappointed (and shocked when it dyno'd 350), and BPU is just about keeping me going, but the temptation of a Single and more power is already there (and Darryl's guide will be given a re-read when that point inevitably comes!).

[JustGav]

Okay, I suppose I'll jump in as well

 

I'm a fan of NA-T, HOWEVER my view is that the only difference between NA-T and a TT-Single is the block/head is different, the same amount of extras ie ECU, fueling, manifold, blah,blah and all that still need to be taken into account. (And in fact you would need to consider HG/LC Pistons and gearbox/clutch, not a complete list by any means)

Edited February 22, 2010 by JustGav (see edit history)

[Homer]

Which takes it back to the original question really. Could a 300bhp NA-T setup be done in a way that was financially viable? Forgetting for a moment that most of us like to go for more (there might be someone out there who has some self control. ).

 

Bromy's post looks interesting (nice find Scooter), it got expensive after 340bhp. I wonder what the cost actually was? Bromy and Gazza both seem to be still active, maybe we could drag them in here!

 

Personally I know I wouldn't stick to 300. I went NA-TT and was left disappointed (and shocked when it dyno'd 350), and BPU is just about keeping me going, but the temptation of a Single and more power is already there (and Darryl's guide will be given a re-read when that point inevitably comes!).

 

Bromy and Gazza have both sold their cars so you won't get anywhere with that one. Gaz did put in some respectable times at pod though (with Drag tyres).

 

Your car had issues at the dyno day and 350 is not normal for BPU. It needs to be looked into as mentioned back then

 

It all depends on what power you will *ultimately* want and your budget to detemine which route is most suitable.

 

For example:

 

300bhp

NA-TT - £2700 - huge potential further power

NA-T - £1500 - no potential future power increase

 

400bhp

NA-TT - £3000 - single as further option

NA-T - £5000+ - Small potenital increase

 

500bhp

NA-TT & single - £10k+ - the skys the limit for future mods

NA-T - £8k+ - No more power without complete rebuild with TT spec

 

600bhp

NA-TT - £10k again

NA-T - Forget it

[AlexM]

300bhp

NA-TT - £2700 - huge potential further power

NA-T - £1500 - no potential future power increase

 

400bhp...

 

That's more the sort of thing, it makes an NA-T seem an option if you have specific goals in mind (Though personally I see a 1JZ for £1,000-2,000 still being a better option). Someone could, if they wanted, potentially have a nice 300bhp NA-T on a W58 or A340E. What parts could you get together for £1,500 though? Is that based off of secondhand bits of kit and a home build?

 

Your car had issues at the dyno day and 350 is not normal for BPU. It needs to be looked into as mentioned back then

 

It had an idling issue at the dyno day Darryl, it was running BPU mods but only 0.8bar - so I believe 350 was about right? It's now running around 1.1bar (after the brief 1.4bar experience) until I get a boost controller (and possibly Ryan's piggyback too).

[Homer]

That's more the sort of thing, it makes an NA-T seem an option if you have specific goals in mind (Though personally I see a 1JZ for £1,000-2,000 still being a better option). Someone could, if they wanted, potentially have a nice 300bhp NA-T on a W58 or A340E. What parts could you get together for £1,500 though? Is that based off of secondhand bits of kit and a home build?

 

£1.5k is from a home build on 2nd hand parts and a LOT of DIY, well lets say complete DIY It's possible but anyone considering it needs to really know what they are doing (and I wouldn't put myself in that bracket entirely). I could probably do it for a bit more but wouldn't as I'd want more power at some point.

[dr_jekyll]

wow i missed this one last night,

 

i have an na-t as many of you know. and i think if your not looking for huge figures and just want a sharp 330bhp that sounds awsome on an external waistgate this is a good way to go.

 

coupled with the 5 speed ahd high comp it is faster than a stock tt, id say it runs more like bpu. and realisticly its only a headgaskett, injectors, new map and stronger gearbox away from 450+.

 

i love my na-t i love the way it drives and the way it sounds and for road use with the ocasional track day i cant see why anybody would need more power, i cant ofeten fully open this up so unless your a verry talented driver (Jamie p) or completely insane (Jamie p) thers no need to chase huge numbers as you rearly get to use them.

 

if i was to buy another supe it would probably be another na and id do it again.

 

 

unless i had lost and lots of money going spare

Edited February 23, 2010 by dr_jekyll (see edit history)

[steve spedd]

wow i missed this one last night,

 

i have an na-t as many of you know. and i think if your not looking for huge figures and just want a sharp 330bhp that sounds awsome on an external waistgate this is a good way to go.

 

coupled with the 5 speed ahd high comp it is faster than a stock tt, id say it runs more like bpu. and realisticly its only a headgaskett, injectors, new map and stronger gearbox away from 450+.

 

i love my na-t i love the way id drived and the way itr sound and for road use with the ocasional track day i cant see why anybody would need more power, i cant ofeten fully open this up so unless your a verry talented driver (Jamie p) or completely insane (Jamie p) thers no need to chase huge numbers as you rarly get to use them.

 

if i wan to buy another supe it would probably be another na and id do it again.

 

 

unless i had lost and lots of money going spare

 

well said mate... i think there are more NA-t's on here then people know of...

[w41k3r]

The thing that puts me off doing the n\a-t is drilling the block for the oil line, the rest of fitting the kit doesnt seem hard at all

 

As i read on club na-t if you dont want to drill the block apparently you can take one of (i THINK) the oil sensors out and use that instead

 

I dont really see a problem with the na-t route and as for doing it with 2nd hand parts im fine with that to im surrounded by scrap yards lol also if using the ebay\xs power stuff surely that would be fine for the 300bhp

 

I think we should use 300bhp as the figure and go from there what parts,how much where from to give people a better idea

[dr_jekyll]

its not realling drilling the block as such.

 

 

you buy a theaded head union bolt form lexues that holds the filter housing on for the feed. and the sump is the same as the tt sump but the returne plate is just blocked off, so you drill that out, ( alu so goes through like butter) and tap the holes that allready either side of it , viola you have your oil ways

 

so even if you do bugger up the drilling, you just put a new sump on, no need to touch the engine block

[Smallshinyant]

hmm, never considered the na-t route because mostly i read bad things about it on here. Are there any of the mechanics on here who would do this and at what sort of price.

Big question from my point would be if a na-auto box would be able to handle the 300ponies?

[w41k3r]

and the sump is the same as the tt sump but the returne plate is just blocked off, so you drill that out, ( alu so goes through like butter) and tap the holes that allready either side of it

 

so even if you do bugger up the drilling, you just put a new sump on, no need to touch the engine block

 

Yeah thats what i ment so i am rite in thinking you could just use the tt one and have no drilling? did you do your own as thats the only thing that puts me off about it

[dr_jekyll]

yea you could put a tt sump on and is all done. yes i did my own , wasnt really a problem.

[w41k3r]

yea you could put a tt sump on and is all done. yes i did my own , wasnt really a problem.

 

See to be honest im only interrested in what the people that have done this have to offer as they no true costs and parts to go for through trial and error, rather than people that just say na-t is crap or not worth doing

 

dr_jekyll how much did yours come to in total seen as though you did your own as thats how id do mine, did you use cheap or 2nd hand parts ?

[dr_jekyll]

mine came to around £1700, i baught the xs power kit for about £750 new at the time. i used custom oil lines as the xs ones are tat. xs do 2 types of na-t manifold. braced and unbraced. the unbraced ones are the ones that crack under the weight of the turbo, from what i gather so far i havent heard of the braced ones cracking.

 

the xs t61 turbo started leaking oil after about a year so i binned that and baught a garret gt4088 for £600 used from b'have as i thught running this turbo at 7 psi is not really working the turbo so reliablity should be good.

i used the greddy emanage blue to controll the fuelling and take care of the boost cut. £250

 

and i use the innovate motorsprts lc-1 with db guage for my afr monitor about £180 iirc

 

all the work i did myself. ther is alot of trial and error and im not going to say i didnt hit a few stumbling blocks.

 

as said i used cheap new parts and the only probs i had with the kit was the turbo, dnd the oil lines wernt up to much. the mainfold ans intercooler kit seem to be holding up well as are the waistgate and bov. ( touch wood)

 

the only other thing i would suggest is buy lots of heat wrap and heat shield.

Edited February 23, 2010 by dr_jekyll (see edit history)

[Rob_Mitchell]

its definately the route i will be taking and craig has given me good advise via pm's