Lbm Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I could tell you what happens, but then I'd have to kill you. But before you do (kill us) perhaps a small insight would be nice. The afterlife - It's full of bears with top hats isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorin Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 The afterlife - It's full of bears with top hats isn't it? That's just the start, there's a whole animal + jaunty hat party going on up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lbm Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 That's just the start, there's a whole animal + jaunty hat party going on up there. I knew it. I just knew it. Are there many naked ladies too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexJames Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 ........surely to believe in him and have a real relationship with him you need to be told about him (is there an age cut off where if by that time you've not found Jesus you are done for should the worst happen, but you're ok beforehand?)............and what of people born isolated from other humanity/christianity, how does Jesus make himself known to them, how can they know who they need to believe and form a relationship with? yes thats correct, I was told about him by many different people, but it wasnt untill I was about 16/17 that I decided to follow Jesus and get to know him. There isnt a cut off of age no... a person can believe at 15, a person can believe at 90 but who knows when our time is up, so I find it best to take it serious now People in different parts of the world are being reached by missionary, but, God doesn't need us to make himself known, there are many stories of people in the middle east who keep seeing visions of Jesus in their dreams, which has made them turn from their faith and turn to Jesus. Similarly, many tribal people become aware of God just by creation around them being so spectacular. Gods pretty awesome, and he only wants to get to know us again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexJames Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Please don't forget to put a good word in for me in case I'm wrong being atheist That sort of ties in with my scientific point of view.... lol Ill pray for you my friend ... but its not down to me in the end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Not really. You could look absurd, for example. That doesn't mean you look impossible. Closer to ridiculous. Absurdity in the context it was writen implied that the premise was inconsistent with reason or logic. my point is in the lack of any evidence either way, although the nothingness after death theory is perhaps the most intuitive theory- its still a belief, which cannot be justified with reason and logic either. so we shouldnt pretend that it can and claim some sort of intellectual superiority over those who may believe otherwise. im not advocating either theory. i do suggest though to have a completely close minded approach in an evidential void is the true absurdity. baisically - 'it aint no thang but a chicken wang....' i think that makes my feelings clear on the matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbourner Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Ref: NDEs and lucid dreaming etc. We still don't really understand the whole concept of consciousness, we think we exist in this world but all we know is what our brain knows, and all that knows is electrical signals from our sensors (imagine losing your sense of smell, then taste, then hearing and sight, all you could do is touch - lose that and what can you know?). Just like the Matrix you could fake those signals to a brain and tell it whatever you want it to believe. So then, what is consciousness? What makes us understand those inputs and put them all together to form this 'reality'? Whatever that process is it controls our entire life - including dreaming, and also people with mental problems, hallucinations etc. It's a small step to think that when you 'die' that consciousness process takes over again and fills your 'reality' with images that just so happen to agree with your own beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbourner Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Jesus opened the way for us to go to heaven... but only if we believe in him and have a real relationship with him. Does that not sound a bit like fascism though? "Obey me and follow me and you will be rewarded - disobey me and spend eternity in pain and suffering." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Whilst I agree that things like Quantum mechanics may indeed seem absurd to scientists 150 years ago for example, you could explain the reasoning behind it to someone and you can see the logical steps as to how it could be theorized and then proven. one of the implications of quantum entaglement experiments is that logic is not valid - see the assumptions underlaying behls theorom for evidence. scientists and mathematicians (like me) are still trying to explain that one away! Also : Richard Feynman quotes (American theoretical physicist, 1918-1988) : “Nobody understands quantum theory.” not 150 years ago... my point being it still difies normall reasoning and logic so you cant bundle it in with the rest of theoretical science .(as does a belief in the after life perhaps!?...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lbm Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Does that not sound a bit like fascism though? "Obey me and follow me and you will be rewarded - disobey me and spend eternity in pain and suffering." The *giving babies Leukemia* faith test is one of my favourites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Does that not sound a bit like fascism though? "Obey me and follow me and you will be rewarded - disobey me and spend eternity in pain and suffering." you think that sounds bad.. sikhism tells its followers your going to get screwed in life either way. its just that having faith (in what ever religion) will help you get through the inevitable suffering... i paraphrase of course! its slap in the face (apparent) honesty is what appeals to me. edit: although it does promise a reward of 'perpetual bliss' for a good life - all be it in a different state of conciouseness so i cant claim its that different from other faiths in that way.. so to an extent your wright. im just a 'rationalist' who wants to believe theres more but who accepts theres no way to prove there is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 what is consciousness? hit the nail on the head. thats the crux of the debate. self awareness appears to have no convincing evolutionary purpose. its still a complete mystery as to how and why it works, or even why we should need it. and yet it essentially defines our entire experience of the cosmos. the universe would not exist if we were not here to observe it.. the lack of explination is reason enough to keep an open mind (for me personally). in regards to tv Mediums: ..not that open. i may be open minded but im not an idiot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attero Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I've been thinking about this a lot lately and I've also been quite worried about going into the eternal "soul sleep" that so many people believe might happen. I mean if that's the case... earth may have been our "last" paradise. That doesn't seem right. The conclusion that I had made a long time ago which I think I stick by because it's pretty scientific if we go into it in detail. But basically, every human body is an energy source. Atoms binded together to allow electric pulses to run through allowing the atoms to make movements, descisions, contain memory and use the senses. These atoms come from the mother earth herself. When a body is deceased the mind goes into a "soul-sleep" until all the atoms of the body are returned to the earth. Once that has happened the atoms depart on their own or in large groups to form a split ressurection of one or more new born children. Since the atoms have always been a part of you, miniscule parts of your personality and physical appearance is transferred to the new born and your soul remains whether your know it or not. This is why it's a good idea for the body to be buried as it's a quicker process for the atoms to return the earth and so the soul-sleep isn't so daunting. Having a cremation means that the atoms cannot escape back to the earth which is bad for the soul as is dying away from the earth (in space). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 It is interesting that the event of death is tied up with religion. It is part of a natural course of events that religion has seen to take hostage. Is it that religion in its goal to exercise power and control over the masses builds a mythology over the afterlife. There is no real evidence to support any line of reasoning as regards to death and what happens after. We believe and hope that there is something and many put their faith in the religious leaders in the hope that they are telling the truth, when in fact they are as blind as the rest of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozz Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Does that not sound a bit like fascism though? "Obey me and follow me and you will be rewarded - disobey me and spend eternity in pain and suffering." As a premise of course it does but its hardly relevant as the statement applies to most things, for instance, work hard and you'll get paid more money. It is the concept of faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I haven't read all of the posts, but I'm firmly in the 'when you die, you die' camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDriver Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I haven't read all of the posts, but I'm firmly in the 'when you die, you die' camp. Indeed dead = dead. Very simple. P - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexJames Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Does that not sound a bit like fascism though? "Obey me and follow me and you will be rewarded - disobey me and spend eternity in pain and suffering." Its more like... I made you and this place, play by my rules... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozz Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 The realist in me says when we die it's game over. The left side of my brain however likes to believe in karma, mixed in with theopolist theories where how you live your life dictates the next incarnation. Sometimes you are given a difficult life, not becuase you did something bad (I'm not a 'hoddleite') but to challenge you into dealing with your circumstance. The better you live each incarnation could result in the opportunity to ascend to a higher plane where you become pure energy. I also like to think it could explain what we call 'ghosts' Part of my belief system (loosely based on theopolist movement) involves the thought that we can transcend the physical plane through meditation. Once we have left the physical plane we are free to view the time as a whole and visit whereever we feel (past, present future becoming irrelevant), in the ethoreal sense. Ghosts could be the impression of these visits. As the visit is not corporeal, no changing of the timeline could occur (always a nightmare for time travel scifi). Through meditation we can visit the plane of existence that we could one day hope to occupy. I've not managed it yet! Its probably all rubbish but the by-product of living your life in the best possible way just in case is hardly a life wasted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedM Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Alexjames, I've heard it said that God loves everyone unconditionally. Would that be correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Alexjames, I've heard it said that God loves everyone unconditionally. Would that be correct? That's me sorted then , don't worry about having a word, it's taken care of Mine isn't a completely blinded point of view, I went to a devote Catholic brother's school as well as an orthodox Jewish school, so I feel that I am at least informed on those particular religious views, if anything it was the understanding of how those two religions were practised they led me to my present views that religions are a form of cult and has been said previously a method of people explaining the unexplainable. To coin the typical phrase, I also have Islamic friends and some 7th day advent friends with whom we have spent many an evening debating such things. My view as far as people and their religions has always been.. accept my view and I'll accept yours and we agree not to try and convert each other. I do remember one guy I knew who was some sect of Christianity but they were extreme, he firmly believed that his Methodist or something like that belief was the ONLY correct one and that everyone else would be in hell, even if they did believe in Jesus which I find rather disturbing, he used to pray for me every lunchtime in the park as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I'm fully expecting to become worm food. It's not nice to think about, so you just have to live your life fully and enjoy it, it's the only thing you can do. If you believe in an afterlive of any sorts, then you're open to believe in the supernatural, which means that you have to be open to believe anything supernatural. And that's where it falls apart, because there's no evidence that anything supernatural has ever happened. We live in a finite world and we are finite entities within. Altough I'd love to believe in something after death, it's a hope rather than a reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaz1 Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 That's me sorted then , don't worry about having a word, it's taken care of Mine isn't a completely blinded point of view, I went to a devote Catholic brother's school as well as an orthodox Jewish school, so I feel that I am at least informed on those particular religious views, if anything it was the understanding of how those two religions were practised they led me to my present views that religions are a form of cult and has been said previously a method of people explaining the unexplainable. To coin the typical phrase, I also have Islamic friends and some 7th day advent friends with whom we have spent many an evening debating such things. My view as far as people and their religions has always been.. accept my view and I'll accept yours and we agree not to try and convert each other. I do remember one guy I knew who was some sect of Christianity but they were extreme, he firmly believed that his Methodist or something like that belief was the ONLY correct one and that everyone else would be in hell, even if they did believe in Jesus which I find rather disturbing, he used to pray for me every lunchtime in the park as well i think lots of us pray for you mate:p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewOW Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Alexjames, I've heard it said that God loves everyone unconditionally. Would that be correct? I think he must unconditionally love some more than others, by all accounts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 i think lots of us pray for you mate:p hehehehe, I have no doubt sometimes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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