What happens when you die? (serious question)

[Charlotte]

I think I've mentioned this before, but my personal belief is that when you die, it's just like when you go to sleep, but don't dream, and then wake up. Except without the waking up bit.

 

Why should / would there be anything else? When I really think of it the whole concept of any kind of afterlife just seems, well absurd.

 

exactly what I think.

[JustGav]

LOL @ "support group"

 

I believe we are an are accident of the universe. Our existence being extremely fragile, resulting from an unlikely but not impossible sequence of events, both cosmic and organic. I gave up believing in god after nearly electrocuting my self whist bored at Sunday School.

 

To support my view an little understanding of Gestalt psychology is needed. In brief humans need to make sense of their world. We always try to make sense of things around us. We try to make things whole, dots on a page, ink blots, pictures on a wall etc so that we can understand or make sense of them. We need closure.

 

All religions were born in relatively primitive cultures. It is my belief that they arose as these cultures needed to explain not only their existence, but to try to understand the complexities of the world around them. In their battle to survive and understand, the existence of a god or gods help them come to terms with the unexplained events that ruled their lives. Religion took control. Religion gave power, and control to those who set them selves up as religious leaders.

 

An afterlife is a human concept, born out of a need to understand life and death. A belief in an after life gives comfort to those who are grieving. In primitive cultures a belief in afterlife returned power to the leaders of the religion, ie the ancient Egyptians the were masters of religion.

 

No hedging my bets, on the off chance, some omnipotent begin is reading this, for me there is nothing after death, except death itself. Life ends for us, we only live on in the memories of those who knew us. Which is a bit shit really, as I will not meet up with long lost friends and relatives, nor be able to drive at insane speeds on the great highway in the sky. Better make the most of it while I still exist.

 

Absolutely spot on!

[Jake]

the whole concept of any kind of afterlife just seems, well absurd.

 

Exactly.

 

I just can't understand how any sensible person could honestly believe in life, or any other kind of existence, after death.

 

Do the people that believe in life after death not believe in evolution?

If they do believe in evolution, at what point in our evolution do they think what eventually became modern homo sapiens started having an afterlife?

Or do they think every living thing has an afterlife? Even amoebas and bacteria?

[Ewen]

Ah, but a few live on. The lucky ones who had family and friends that still see their faces every day. They live on in the genes they passed on, what they taught us, the way we live our lives. No longer here but still here.

[ivan]

Yes, it does.

[Jas]

I wouldnt say the concept of an afterlife seems absurd... Highly improbable given our current understanding of biology maybe, but not to the point of impossibility (which is what absurd implies).

 

If it cant be disproved we must allow for its possibility - no matter how small we may consider it to be.

 

Arogant would be the assumtion that there is nothing more to discover about the human condition. also, a belief in an afterlife should not be stereotyped as a primitive/archaic/religiouse mode of thought and therefore convieniently sidelined by scientific or 'sensible' thinking minds. Existance beyond biological form in one way or another we may yet still discover routed in logic and science.

 

the point is we just cannot definitively say at this point. the person who belives in no after life has as much evidence as the person who belives in one. so niether can claim an automatic monopoly on reasoned/sensible/scientific or modern thinking.

 

some of the results of quantum machanics experiments seemed and still seem absurd but they are mathematically undinyable. not all in nature is apperently logical or intuitive.

[MrRalphMan]

My father died believing he would be buried under the earth, and return over time to the soil at the foot of the Welsh hills he had loved so much during his life. Over time he would have become elemental, in the most basic of forms.

A simple belief, yet denied to him by a second-choice wife who believed his spiritual soul had been taken up by Jehova, and had him cremated instead.

His ashes, or rather a convincing amount of the gray stuff that consisted of whatever was left from the coffins and other bodies that were burnt that week, were buried under a tree hundreds of miles away from the land that warmed his heart. To this day I have no idea what tree it was.

That was what happened when he died.

 

That's quite sad..

[thebluefox]

I've often wondered, as many people do, what happens when you die. I hear loads of people who had near death experiences, like being brought back to life in hospital, of seeing lights etc, some in this thread infact.

 

I think its something we'll never be sure of until it happens to us. If there is nothing, at least we won't be around to be disappointed about it.

 

One thing that messed me up and made me think there could be something though, was when my gran died. She died at 10 past 5 on 26th March 2006 (which was actually Mothering Sunday). To cut a long story short, we were clearing out her bungalow and I found the travel clock next to her bed that she took with her when she stayed away from home had stopped at exactly 5.10.

 

I'd always thought that that was that, dead and gone, but that made me think otherwise. Was she having a look round the place one last time? Who knows.

 

I personally deep down think there is nothing, but I'd like to think there could be something, because otherwise, honestly, dying scares the shit out of me.

[Chris Wilson]

When you and your new wife go to heaven how is the situation of meeting the hated ex handled by the celestial brethren?

[MrRalphMan]

I believe that when you die, that's it.. Like a switch being flicked off forever, but if there was a heaven, I would think that it's the individuals own heaven.

So while you're there with the Mrs and the Children, in her version of heaven she's off with you best friend and your credit card...

 

Joking aside, if heaven is going to be heaven for everybody, that's the way I see it playing.

[Tannhauser]

I hear loads of people who had near death experiences, like being brought back to life in hospital, of seeing lights etc, some in this thread infact.

 

I wrote a little summary on research into Near Death Experiences recently. Hypoxia is one of the popular theories at the moment. Here's part of it for any that are interested.

 

The idea of NDEs first became well known following psychiatrist Moody’s book Life After Life (1975) which documented the experiences of survivors of heart attacks and other life-threatening experiences. Ring (1980) interviewed a sample of 100 people and identified a number of common features:

 

• 25% reported the experience of floating along a dark tunnel towards a bright light

• 33% reported leaving the body and watching the proceedings from above

• Others reported approaching a barrier and feeling that they had to make a decision whether to pass into an afterlife or return to life.

 

These experiences can be life-changing. Van Lommel et al (2001) carried out a longitudinal study on people that followed 344 survivors of heart attacks over eight years. Those who experienced NDEs (18% of them) experienced greater changes in their attitude to life and death than those who did not.

 

and...

 

Other research into NDEs has looked at the idea that these experiences can be explained biologically.

 

Nelson (2006) has suggested that NDEs are a response to hypoxia (a lack of oxygen) in the brain. Low levels of oxygen occur when the heart stops. According to Nelson, this triggers ‘REM intrusion’. Feelings of floating and falling that often go with REM intrusions seem similar to those in NDEs. Nelson compared 55 people who had experienced NDEs with 55 controls who had not. Those who had experienced NDEs were more likely to also experience REM intrusions, supporting his hypothesis.

 

[REM intrusions: During normal REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, the brain stem is very active, and sends electrical signals to other areas of the brain resulting in dream images. REM intrusion is where the brain in someone who is awake flips into a REM state.]

 

The hypoxia – REM intrusion explanation is backed by evidence from Nelson’s own study (see above). It is also supported by the finding that other conditions that produce hypoxia also produce experiences similar to NDEs. For example, Whinnery (1997) reported that fighter pilots, who black out when gravity pulls the blood from their brains, often report ‘tunnel’ experiences.

 

However, this explanation cannot be a complete one. Biological explanations like this can tend to minimise the importance of broader psychological factors. Although NDEs from western cultures tend to emphasise the features discussed above, other cultures have their own specific elements. For example, Shorer (1985) found that North American Indian NDEs include bows and arrows and eagles. This not only shows how biological theories can be incomplete explanations, but also shows the American/European culture bias within Psychology.

 

More specific problems with the theory include the fact that NDEs occur in people who have not experienced hypoxia. Also, Van Lommel (see above) points out that there is no connection between the depth of hypoxia and whether the patient had an NDE. If it was purely related to lack of oxygen, many more patients in the Van Lommel study would be expected to show NDEs. Also, experiences seen in fighter pilots and others (e.g. Ketamine users) are similar but by no means identical to NDEs.

[Jamesy]

Bluefox, thats a point i echo ..... 'if' there is nothing after that scares the fecking life out of me. How can there be nothing, forever?

 

I know we'd be dead and none the wiser, but being gone/finished/caput for ever is .....

[Jamesy]

Tannhauser thats an interesting write up

[RedM]

I know we'd be dead and none the wiser, but being gone/finished/caput for ever is .....

 

 

...is worrying for people who can't grasp how unimportant humanity really is?

[TLicense]

I wouldnt say the concept of an afterlife seems absurd... Highly improbable given our current understanding of biology maybe, but not to the point of impossibility (which is what absurd implies).

 

If it cant be disproved we must allow for its possibility - no matter how small we may consider it to be.

 

Arogant would be the assumtion that there is nothing more to discover about the human condition. also, a belief in an afterlife should not be stereotyped as a primitive/archaic/religiouse mode of thought and therefore convieniently sidelined by scientific or 'sensible' thinking minds. Existance beyond biological form in one way or another we may yet still discover routed in logic and science.

 

the point is we just cannot definitively say at this point. the person who belives in no after life has as much evidence as the person who belives in one. so niether can claim an automatic monopoly on reasoned/sensible/scientific or modern thinking.

 

some of the results of quantum machanics experiments seemed and still seem absurd but they are mathematically undinyable. not all in nature is apperently logical or intuitive.

 

Not really. You could look absurd, for example. That doesn't mean you look impossible. Closer to ridiculous.

 

Whilst I agree that things like Quantum mechanics may indeed seem absurd to scientists 150 years ago for example, you could explain the reasoning behind it to someone and you can see the logical steps as to how it could be theorized and then proven.

 

Any kind of afterlife is imagined and unprovable. If I was to close my eyes (really tightly) and imagined that the afterlife consisted of me and Milla Jovovich doing things to each other that shouldn't be discussed here, it doesn't mean it's going to happen, no matter how nice it would be.

 

To me, and you're more than welcome to your own opinion, the concept of heaven, hell, afterlife, whatever you want to call it, has simply been imagined by someone and lots of people grasped hold of the idea because it's a lot more palatable than the alternatives. But I believe it's imagined nonetheless, and no more likely to be the case than any other infinite number of imagined concepts.

 

As Jamesy has already said, the thought of there being nothing more once you've closed your eyes for that last time, takes a lot of getting used to, and it still scares me every time I think about it, but I guess the trick is to make it scare you into living the life that I believe you do have.

[Snooze]

Interesting post, Tannhauser - personally, I still prescribe to the theory that NDEs are a specific incidence of lucid dreaming that happens to occur at certain moments (ie. near death!). I believe that so called "out-of-body" experiences and eastern-style "astral projection" are also peoples description of lucid dreaming experiences.

 

Having experimented with lucid dreaming quite a bit (back in the days when I had time to spare snoozing around - ie. at university, mainly!), I can easily see how the amazing vividness of a lucid dream would be startling to a first-time lucid dreamer and how they may easily end up describing it as any one of these things.

 

The hypoxia theory kind of ties into that too - I believe that the triggering of REM sleep at unnatural times during the sleep cycle (by either oxygen starvation or any other means, in fact) is more likely to induce lucid dreaming than REM sleep occuring at its usual regular interval during a normal sleep pattern.

[thebluefox]

As others have said, Tannhauser, very thought-provoking post. The part about culture-dependent NDE's is very interesting - if there's one heaven/hell and path to it (for instance) then everyones experiences should be the same.

 

I'm not sure how this thread has managed it, but its just got even deeper

 

Ahh I love a good discussion.

[j_jza80]

I may come back as Carl S when I die, just for a day or two.

 

:

 

He seems to have moved on to another place/forum. I think he was always in a different dimension though.

[S44M KT]

You stop breathing?

[The Raven]

Hmm, what a good read that was.

 

Does not change my views on the subject.

 

Maybe on a different subject,

 

I was talking to the mrs about the existance of god, and his son.

 

Now i look at it this way, People we being killed, feed to lions and burnt at the stake for the guy. If he didnt ever have existed there must have been someone around to say something.

 

I mean it all had to start somewhere, and if it was made up the lid would have been blown by 20AD? say.

[Aweegin]

... I did a job for a CofE vicar a good few years ago, I'm in the building trade.. inevitably this subject came up during the course of the weeks i worked for him... I'll never forget his words on the matter... from a man of the cloth..he just said.. 'tbh.. i think what ever you believe will happen to you when you die, is what will probably happen'.

 

I figure.. the whole universe is made out of the same stuff that originated from the big bang (if you believe that theory).. just glued together in different ways..in very basic terms. Maybe there's some big melting pot as an 'afterlife'? Also why one of my favourite sayings is... We are all stardust

 

Personally.. long as i can remember.. losing loved ones, be they friends, relatives or pets.. i have always just thought to myself..(or whispered to the pet in the situation).. see you again some day.. without thought, that's the way i have always seen it.

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Read a fictional book once, one of Clive Barkers... the book was about many things but a crux was that Religion was created to cover up and distract from another matter (it was fiction but the theory was interesting)...

 

Religion has been and still remains a cause for many wars...

[Max Headroom]

I believe that there is nothing out there after death, once we die thats it! We live with the hope that there is something else after this life, be a good christian/muslim/sikh/buddist in this life and in the next life you will live in paradise doesnt wash with me.

[Dnk]

I believe that there is nothing out there after death, once we die thats it! We live with the hope that there is something else after this life, be a good christian/muslim/sikh/buddist in this life and in the next life you will live in paradise doesnt wash with me.

 

Pretty much my thoughts on the matter, you die, end of story im afraid.

[Thorin]

I could tell you what happens, but then I'd have to kill you.

[Guest 000lynx]

lol