What happens when you die? (serious question)

[tbourner]

I am aware of the Holy Trinity but am somewhat confused by the concept. If I assume correctly, mainstream Christian belief denotes that:

 

1. Jesus is God

2. Jesus is the Son of God

3. Jesus is the son of Mary

 

So Mary (p.b.u.h) gave birth to God?

 

He is the same as God yet he is the intermediary sent by God?

'He' isn't human though, 'He's beyond what we can comprehend. His energy permiates everything.

Maybe that's why we get Earthquakes, God's energy is angry and rattles the planet.

 

For all you atheists/ non-believers in God:

 

IF you believe when you die, you just die- then what is the difference between a serial rapist and charity worker? Essentially you end up the same way- worm food?

In terms of death there isn't much of a difference, we're all biological beings affected by disease and poison.

 

Isn't the weight of feelings such as love and caring greatly diminished if you believe the above? Feelings like compassion and love- these are then just mere bi-products of physical reactions in the brain. Thus, the belief that Hitler was bad is just a belief brought about by mere common consensus- someone could then well be within reason to believe he was a good person (btw I consider him evil before you brand me a NAzi!).

 

I am not saying that atheists have no moral beliefs by the way!

Why shouldn't they be bi-products of our existence? Why does that make it any less caring to have a moral compass guiding you? We invented these words you're using; compassion and love, they are defined exactly by our feelings and emotions coming from the biological bi-product of life - God didn't create love and compassion, only the causes of those words being designed, we made the words to suit based on biological bi-products.

Similarly, the word 'bad' is designed by consensus to mean a certain thing, Hitler falls into that category, so by our meager definitions he was a 'worse' human being than us - in the eyes of God that may or may not mean anything, regardless you can't use human words to describe the worth of a person in Gods terms.

[Jas]

Wow that is almost exactly the same as the KEY verse describing God in the Qur'an.

 

Chapter 112, Surah al-Ikhlas:

 

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only!

Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

He begetteth not nor is He begotten.

And there is none like unto Him.

 

 

its also almost exactly same as some verses in the vedas and taoism scriptures!... oh and the bhudist 8 fold path!.. and some bits of Christianity and zoroastrealism!

 

you would have to read further on to find the bit where sikhs dont believe in hell (unlike Islam/Christianity and Judaism) and countless other differences.

 

Oh… And we also don’t believe Sikhism is the only right path..

 

but please.. whats your point??

[Soop Dogg]

No mate, you become bacteria food. Sorry to say, but that's where our current level of understanding puts things.

 

If you want to believe stories; I am penning a new religion at the moment.

 

While we're doing ridicule:

 

Don't tell me, Martini - you're oging to call your new religion 'An inconvenient truth' and it'll be based on a fairytale land over which was spreading a great darkness, an evil called...... 'Anthropological Global Warming'.

 

[martini]

While we're doing ridicule:

 

Don't tell me, Martini - you're oging to call your new religion 'An inconvenient truth' and it'll be based on a fairytale land over which was spreading a great darkness, an evil called...... 'Anthropological Global Warming'.

 

 

 

Nah, I'm going to call it:

 

"Why it doesn't matter if Global Warming is real or not and other short stories"

[Septic]

its also almost exactly same as some verses in the vedas and toaism scriptures!... oh and the bhudist 8 fold path!.. and some bits of Christianity!

 

you would have to read further on to find the bit where sikhs dont belive in hell (unlike Islam/Christianity and Judaism) and countless other differences.

 

Oh… And we also don’t believe Sikhism is the only right path..

 

but please.. whats your point??

 

No point- its just I don't know much about the Sikh scripture apart from the fact that it is an amalgamation of the Islamic and Hindu faith. The similarity was very interesting that's all.

[Septic]

I agree that

you can't use human words to describe the worth of a person in Gods terms.

 

In regards to this :

 

Why shouldn't they be bi-products of our existence? Why does that make it any less caring to have a moral compass guiding you? We invented these words you're using; compassion and love, they are defined exactly by our feelings and emotions coming from the biological bi-product of life - God didn't create love and compassion, only the causes of those words being designed, we made the words to suit based on biological bi-products.

 

I agree with you with the above but I was referring to the quantitative value of those emotions/morals. If a supreme being exists and has commanded its creation on the value of such emotions/feelings/morality then surely it is then that the latter qualities have most weight. Otherwise, negating the existence of the aforementioned creator- the value of such emotions is always going to be questionable and differing.

[Jas]

No point- its just I don't know much about the Sikh scripture apart from the fact that it is an amalgamation of the Islamic and Hindu faith. The similarity was very interesting that's all.

 

 

 

The similarities between islam and Judaism and the parallel evolution of both is also striking to an outsider.

 

But it would be like saying its a fact that Islam is bits of Judaism and Christianity merged with left over Abrahamic tradition - with some bits scrubbed out that they didnt like of course.

 

It would just be a very ignorant comment to make imo.

[Septic]

The similarities between islam and Judaism and the parallel evolution of both is also striking to an outsider.

 

But it would be like saying its a fact that Islam is bits of Judaism and Christianity merged with left over Abrahamic tradition - with some bits scrubbed out that they didnt like of course.

 

It would just be a very ignorant comment to make imo.

 

Oh my apologies. I always thought that was the case because that's what my Sikh friends tell me!! I honestly thought that was regarded as fact by the Sikh community so was ignorant in my statement. Like I said....I know very little of Sikhism.

 

I'm off to smack my mates

[tbourner]

I agree with you with the above but I was referring to the quantitative value of those emotions/morals. If a supreme being exists and has commanded its creation on the value of such emotions/feelings/morality then surely it is then that the latter qualities have most weight. Otherwise, negating the existence of the aforementioned creator- the value of such emotions is always going to be questionable and differing.

Well you questioned whether someone could skew their moral guide because of a lack of faith, and categorise Hitler as a good person (you're right people could claim he was good because he was man of the year etc. but that's a different discussion - I understand the reference), and I think it's more a case of empathy, mercy and that thing we call 'humanity' than religion. I would have to agree that religion held a certain natural punishment over the people, and probably resulted in a higher average morality in humans, but removing it completely (being 100% aethiest) doesn't have to limit your knowldge of right and wrong - maybe it does shift the balance in favour of the bad, but it's certainly not guaranteed.

[penguin]

we all return to God, and await the judgement hour which puts us in either heaven or hell. this "life" is nothing but an illusion, a playground for GOD and the devil to test our faith in our existence.

[penguin]

Wow that is almost exactly the same as the KEY verse describing God in the Qur'an.

 

Chapter 112, Surah al-Ikhlas:

 

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only!

Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

He begetteth not nor is He begotten.

And there is none like unto Him.

 

 

Sikhism is based loosely on islamic principals

wsalaam bro

[penguin]

The similarities between islam and Judaism and the parallel evolution of both is also striking to an outsider.

 

But it would be like saying its a fact that Islam is bits of Judaism and Christianity merged with left over Abrahamic tradition - with some bits scrubbed out that they didnt like of course.

 

It would just be a very ignorant comment to make imo.

 

indeed people do infact make this argument, however the Quran is the final word of God and concludes ALL Abrahamic scriptures. good place to start http://www.quranexplorer.com

[Thorin]

Well you questioned whether someone could skew their moral guide because of a lack of faith, and categorise Hitler as a good person (you're right people could claim he was good because he was man of the year etc. but that's a different discussion - I understand the reference), and I think it's more a case of empathy, mercy and that thing we call 'humanity' than religion. I would have to agree that religion held a certain natural punishment over the people, and probably resulted in a higher average morality in humans, but removing it completely (being 100% aethiest) doesn't have to limit your knowldge of right and wrong - maybe it does shift the balance in favour of the bad, but it's certainly not guaranteed.

 

Godwin's!

[Jamesy]

with all this good v bad

 

i wonder out of the worlds population, what the ratio is to

 

Good guys/belivers v's bad, non beliveres??

[Jas]

Oh my apologies. I always thought that was the case because that's what my Sikh friends tell me!! I honestly thought that was regarded as fact by the Sikh community so was ignorant in my statement. Like I said....I know very little of Sikhism.

 

I'm off to smack my mates

 

If you consider the possibility of no god. Then it would be reasonable to assume that all religions are simply plagiarisms and modifications of those that came before them. There is no denying that. you can consider one religion valid over other if you wish but in the lack of scientific evidence a personal choice must be made.

 

 

I am acutely aware that my beliefs are considered blasphemous by islam as i follow the teachings of people who came some time after the considered last messenger of god (according to islam), in a different part of the world steming from different traditions.

 

but i have read allot of the (only the translated) quaran and bible and find that i dont agree with some of the sentiments. so ill just have to take my chances and believe god/Allah is forgiving and 'he' realises i had only good intentions in mind!

[Septic]

Well you questioned whether someone could skew their moral guide because of a lack of faith, and categorise Hitler as a good person (you're right people could claim he was good because he was man of the year etc. but that's a different discussion - I understand the reference), and I think it's more a case of empathy, mercy and that thing we call 'humanity' than religion. I would have to agree that religion held a certain natural punishment over the people, and probably resulted in a higher average morality in humans, but removing it completely (being 100% aethiest) doesn't have to limit your knowldge of right and wrong - maybe it does shift the balance in favour of the bad, but it's certainly not guaranteed.

 

Again I agree with the above to an extent but I'm not really talking about the impact belief/non-belief would have on the world. I'm arguing that God-consciousness adds a whole superior and objective level in terms of moral values and the quality of emotional weight.

 

This video-debate is really interesting and echoes both agnostic and believers views:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Hr1_LB3Io

 

Wsalam penguin.

[TLicense]

IF you believe when you die, you just die- then what is the difference between a serial rapist and charity worker? Essentially you end up the same way- worm food?

 

Yup, that's exactly what I believe.

 

But there's a couple of ways to think about that. You can fall into the "well if there's no ultimate deterrant, then sod it, I'm going to do what I want to whome I want", or you can think "well I've only got a limited amount of time here before I'm gone forever. I'd best make the most out of it. Everyone else is in the same boat as me, so it would be unfair of me to reduce the enjoyment of their life".

 

So you can end up ultimately in a downward spiral of selfless destruction, or you can use this way of thinking as a means to living a full life, learning and experiencing everything that the world has to offer.

[martini]

So you can end up ultimately in a downward spiral of selfless destruction, or you can use this way of thinking as a means to living a full life, learning and experiencing everything that the world has to offer.

 

Well said

 

Quite apt that I am listening to NIN right now too.

 

I think when I die, Matt H will get £25k for his cut and shut.

[AlexJames]

we all return to God, and await the judgement hour which puts us in either heaven or hell. this "life" is nothing but an illusion, a playground for GOD and the devil to test our faith in our existence.

 

Im impressed, are you a Christian my friend? as in, bible believe Christian?

[Septic]

 

So you can end up ultimately in a downward spiral of selfless destruction, or you can use this way of thinking as a means to living a full life, learning and experiencing everything that the world has to offer.

 

Live a "full life" (what is a full-life? Its interpretation can vary from person to person)

 

"learning and experiencing everything that the world has to offer" And then unlearning it all when you die. All those experiences and knowledge gained but ultimately lost. Isn't this futile? Am I really just a goldfish with a penis?

[Jas]

-

 

 

I get the feeling you more knowledgeable about islam then i am.

 

what evidence or reasoning does islam provide as to the existence of a god/Allah?

 

i often hear Christians talk of the 'evidence of design' argument?* alex can you confirm/elaborate.

 

but im not sure what islam says on the matter.

 

can someone enlighten me?

[Lbm]

can someone enlighten me?

 

Only you can enlighten you

[Jas]

Only you can enlighten you

 

in that case im F*#ked....

 

excuse the colourfull language!.

[Jas]

So you can end up ultimately in a downward spiral of selfless destruction

 

What would be destructive about being selfish in the absence of some sort of cosmic justice system?

 

ie how would being selfish be detrimental to oneself if you could get away with it in life.

 

 

 

ps.

 

... this threads on fire!.. Bouncing all over the place like a schizophrenic ping pong ball!

 

who’s going to be the fist person to mention the Easter bunny??

 

.. oh.. that would be me..

[penguin]

Im impressed, are you a Christian my friend? as in, bible believe Christian?

 

I'm Muslim I believe Jesus (p.b.u.h) was a prophet Of God... (further reading: http://www.quranexplorer.com/Quran/Default.aspx )

 

my opinion is to truly understand Gods works (religious text) one has to have broad knowledge on a variety of subjects